Toronto Lower Don Lands Redevelopment | ?m | ?s | Waterfront Toronto

[clarkburglar]

I suspect Fire Services would veto that design., for one - there were similar discussions in the early days of the Regent Park plan.

AoD

Can you provide more details on this? They wanted to building a European style street grid but it was vetoed by the fire department?

 

[ADRM]

Can you provide more details on this? They wanted to building a European style street grid but it was vetoed by the fire department?

The fire department argues against virtually every effort to calm traffic and/or make our roads safer (which, yes, would likely lead to fewer instances of them being called to road-related emergencies in the first place). I'm sympathetic to a degree about concerns about turning radii related to the length and width of the trucks (though there are ways to address that as well via both infrastructure and changes to operating procedures), but most of their other arguments are typically red herrings at best.

 

[Northern Light]

Can you provide more details on this? They wanted to building a European style street grid but it was vetoed by the fire department?

Toronto Fire, has, in the past, strenuously objected to narrower road ROWs, particularly on side streets.

The argument is one of ease of maneuvering/access of current sized fire trucks.
Smaller streets make it distinctly more challenging to operate large equipment. Generally, they do not make it impossible; though with snowbanks, there may be a legitimate issue on the narrowest of roads.

There is a straight-forward solution, which is to buy some smaller equipment that can more easily navigate smaller streets (common in both Europe and Asia).
Banning street parking is also part of the answer here, I should add; and making sure deliveries and loading can be done off-road. That way, if necessary, the fire department can make use of the entire street width.

As @ADRM notes above, the arguments made are reactionary, and any legitimate concerns can be addressed.

 

[ADRM]

There is a straight-forward solution, which is to buy some smaller equipment that can more easily navigate smaller streets (common in both Europe and Asia).

If memory serves, one of Layton or Perks had successfully motioned City Staff (don't recall if it was department-specific, i.e. Transportation or Fleet Services, etc.) to explore smaller servicing vehicles, but not sure where that's at.

And, as @Northern Light notes, City Staff moving away from their general slavishness to street parking would actually go a long way to solving this and a host of other problems that Staff and councillors often posit as being intractable.

 

[W. K. Lis]

In Europe and Asia, they do the very same work with garbage trucks, fire trucks, and delivery trucks that are smaller than North American vehicles. The city should order smaller vehicles as a start.

 

[allengeorge]

The argument is one of ease of maneuvering/access of current sized fire trucks.

This is pretty galling (and would be laughable, except that it permanently ruins Toronto’s streetscape). FDNY and Philadelphia’s FD both manage to operate conventional North American sized trucks on major streets that are sometimes narrower than this neighbourhood’s side streets.

 

[yitianjian]

This is pretty galling (and would be laughable, except that it permanently ruins Toronto’s streetscape). FDNY and Philadelphia’s FD both manage to operate conventional North American sized trucks on major streets that are sometimes narrower than this neighbourhood’s side streets.

To be fair, I've seen how long it takes fire trucks to get through some of NYC's tiny streets and their basically exactly fire truck-sized fire halls. (this does not detract from your point at all though, just a funny tidbit)

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

In any case, given the current and future housing pressure, perhaps it is time to push (mandate?) for smaller vehicles that can handle tighter curves.

AoD

 

[skycandy]

Plenty of work this morning from the water’s edge all the way to Saulter St.

Facing NNE…trees!

River gouged out to the bridge’s edge.

 

[Dinamo5]

It doesn't seem like the yellow south Cherry st. bridge is in place yet, are they still piecing it together? Surprising to see it take this long to get installed on the supports. Although it has been quite cold latley.

 

[allengeorge]

To be fair, I've seen how long it takes fire trucks to get through some of NYC's tiny streets and their basically exactly fire truck-sized fire halls. (this does not detract from your point at all though, just a funny tidbit)

My last observation on this - and we can go back to other topics

As a result of your point some NYC neighbourhoods have lots of super small (1 truck or 2 truck) stations in fairly close proximity. My suspicion is that they use different routes to a fire when multiple are scrambled. I’m curious how many trucks the median Toronto Fire Station houses. If stations are farther apart and have to cover a larger geographical area with little redundancy, I can understand why speed is important.

Separately, I know a couple of years ago there was also a question as to whether Toronto was over provisioned wrt fire coverage given the number of fires and the general modern construction of our building stock.

 

[DSC]

It doesn't seem like the yellow south Cherry st. bridge is in place yet, are they still piecing it together? Surprising to see it take this long to get installed on the supports. Although it has been quite cold latley.

They are certainly still doing welding on it and there is no huge rush to lift it onto the piers but I assume they will try to do it while the ground is still frozen so the cranes do not start sinking into the mud. Then they will excavate below it, move Cherry St over onto the new bridge and then excavate under the current Cherry Street.

I think the 'plug' is about where Cherry is now and that will be last thing removed so that when it is removed water will flow (gently) into the new riverbed from the lake. Finally, they will open up the north end (@ the existing right-hand turn going into the Keating Channel) and the river will mainly use the new channels to reach the Lake.

 

[W. K. Lis]

In any case, given the current and future housing pressure, perhaps it is time to push (mandate?) for smaller vehicles that can handle tighter curves.

AoD

Recently seen a pumper truck arrive on my street, 4 minutes before the ambulance. It was for a medical emergency. The ambulance left with the patient.

Wonder how many times the fire department arrives NOT for a fire? A big truck or a small truck could handle an automobile fire on the highway, doesn't matter the size of the fire truck.

If it was a fire, did they need a giant truck to handle it? If there was a big fire, more trucks would arrive to help out. Even for a cat...

 

[DSC]

Recently seen a pumper truck arrive on my street, 4 minutes before the ambulance. It was for a medical emergency. The ambulance left with the patient.

Wonder how many times the fire department arrives NOT for a fire? A big truck or a small truck could handle an automobile fire on the highway, doesn't matter the size of the fire truck.

If it was a fire, did they need a giant truck to handle it? If there was a big fire, more trucks would arrive to help out. Even for a cat...

The use of fire trucks for medical emergencies has been discussed for years, See this from National Post in 2011 https://nationalpost.com/posted-toronto/were-in-a-war-with-the-fire-department and this more recent news item. https://www.healthing.ca/news/firefighters-responding-to-lower-priority-ambulance-calls-fire-chief/

 

[W. K. Lis]

The use of fire trucks for medical emergencies has been discussed for years, See this from National Post in 2011 https://nationalpost.com/posted-toronto/were-in-a-war-with-the-fire-department and this more recent news item. https://www.healthing.ca/news/firefighters-responding-to-lower-priority-ambulance-calls-fire-chief/

Also a waste of fuel, when a smaller vehicle (ambulance) should have been used. Maybe more Emergency Medical Services stations is needed, preferably at the same location as the fire stations.

More EMS vehicles would be needed with the Don Lands development as well.

Why paramedics are spending more time stuck at hospitals ​

Patients increasingly have to wait on EMS stretchers for “offloading” to hospitals — and the delays are reaching crisis levels

See link.