Toronto Lower Don Lands Redevelopment | ?m | ?s | Waterfront Toronto

What people fail to realize about the Red Sox/Yankees game is that more TORONTO fans go to them too. Yes the Red Sox/Yankees fans account for a bit of the crowds at the games, but the reality is that most JAYS fans also like to see matchups against our division rivals - particularly when they are two of the most popular teams in baseball, so we also wait until those games to go see one.

For example, every game I've been to this season and last was vs the Yankees or Red Sox. So they aren't just busy because of the opposing team's fans... they are busy because of our own.
 
gei said:
What people fail to realize about the Red Sox/Yankees game is that more TORONTO fans go to them too. Yes the Red Sox/Yankees fans account for a bit of the crowds at the games, but the reality is that most JAYS fans also like to see matchups against our division rivals - particularly when they are two of the most popular teams in baseball, so we also wait until those games to go see one.

For example, every game I've been to this season and last was vs the Yankees or Red Sox. So they aren't just busy because of the opposing team's fans... they are busy because of our own.
Click to expand...

I've never understood this. I would much rather pay for a ticket that gives me a better chance of seeing a winning game for the Jays. Watching a loss against the yankees or Red Sox is a much worse experience than a win against the Angels, Twins, or A's.
 
people rather go to yankee and red sox games because its the closest we can get to a playoff atmosphere... I had season tickets for three years a few years ago and without fail people love chanting "yankees suck!" We might lose but its entertaining because the crowd is involved...l love skydome but the problem with it is that because our division we are never in the playoff hunt... because we are never in the playoff hunt we cant sell 50000 seats.... because we cant sell 50000 seats the dome feels so empty and the atmosphere often sucks...
 
gei said:
For example, every game I've been to this season and last was vs the Yankees or Red Sox. So they aren't just busy because of the opposing team's fans... they are busy because of our own.
Click to expand...

This is part of the huge dilema that the Jays face.....on the one hand, being in the American League East allows them more games against these two teams and they are the only teams that draw well in town (even when the Rays were topping the division they drew weak crowds here)....so the assumption is games against the Sox and Yanks are necessary to boost attendance/revenue.

On other hand, they probably have a sense that being in the same divsion with the two highest spending teams in baseball decreases the likelihood that they will become a team that regularly competes for playoff baseball and that likely hurts the attendance when the Yankees and Red Sox are not the opponent.

So, do you lobby to get out of the East (or to get a more balanced schedule) to become more competitive or do you stay with the status quo and milk the number of games they have against those two.

This year (with 35 home games played)....the Jays have drawn 731,750 fans for an average of 20,907. 7 of those games were against the "big 2" and they averaged 26,669 (the games against the other teams averaged 19,467). Without doing the calcs/research, I would suspect those are lower numbers than the Yanks and Sox traddtionally draw here but even at that it is an attendance boost (regardless of whether the folks came from the Bronx or the Annex) of 7,200 people...at an average ticket of, say, $30 that is not an insignificant amount of revenue given up.

In many respects, the baseball fans of Toronto (IMHO) are not that different than the hockey fans. What I mean by that are that they are not so much "fans of the game" as much as people that want to see the team with names/history/intrigue. It just so happens that, in hockey, that team plays here whereas in baseball the Yanks and the Sox are those teams.

Kinda tough to make a solid business outa a product that the paying customer only shows a real interest in 22% of the days you are open though and I would guess a lot of brainpower at Rogers HO gets burned trying to figure out how to sell those other 63 games in the schedule.
 
Last edited:
Baseball should have 16 teams in the playoffs... I cant believe fans in toronto have to go through 162 games every year without a hope of making the playoffs... I understand baseball has a history but the stubburness to change anything in the game doesnt help either.. That being said Id think its more likely the Jays could move divisions. If that happened they could compete. AS much as I like the fake playoff atmosphere of regular season games against the sox or the yankees, Id much prefer a chance at the playoffs... Playoff potential is something to get excited about...
 
sixrings said:
Baseball should have 16 teams in the playoffs... I cant believe fans in toronto have to go through 162 games every year without a hope of making the playoffs... I understand baseball has a history but the stubburness to change anything in the game doesnt help either.. That being said Id think its more likely the Jays could move divisions. If that happened they could compete. AS much as I like the fake playoff atmosphere of regular season games against the sox or the yankees, Id much prefer a chance at the playoffs... Playoff potential is something to get excited about...
Click to expand...

The biggest problem that baseball has with expanding their schedule is how do you do it and still fit in 162 games of regular season. The season already starts earlier than it used to and ends later (due to the last expansion of the playoffs). The world series used to be nicknamed "the October classic"....last year, even though it only went 5 games, the W.S. ended on November 1! With a seven game W.S. you are likely looking at last year ending on about November 5th.

Adding another 8 teams means adding a full round of playoffs. Assuming those would be 7 game series, that is a minimum of 10 and more likely 14 days to the play off schedule.....so you are looking at a baseball season not ending until after the middle of November.

Baseball (for the sake of the fans and the players) should not be played in the weather that many of the teams would face in mid-November.

I guess you could shorten the regular season by two weeks (that is probably 10 or 12 games of shortening).....but that is taking 10 revenue days away from all the teams while only 8 have the benefit of the extra play off revenue.....that would be an issue. Also, baseball is such a statistically driven sport, it is more important in baseball that the basis for their records be on a fairly consistant basis. All of a sudden shrinking to a 152 game sched probably means that every record gets duplicated in the books (pre and post) or gets an asterik?

An interesting alternative would be along the lines of what I suggested above about day games. You could pick a day a week and play two games that day. "Two Game Tuesdays". Play an afternoon game at 12:30, empty out the stadium and play a night game at 7:30. If you did this for the months of August and July you would preserve the 162 game schedule but do it in about 2 weeks less time while preserving the number of revenue generation games.

As good and logical as that sounded to me when I first heard it, I now see 3 flaws in it. 1. wear and tear on players (particularly pitchers).....2. it doubles the effect of bad weather if Murphy's law comes into play and you get a bunch of bad weather Tuesdays (you now have to find a place in the schedule to redo 2 games.......3. Some markets are not really good for day baseball in July and August (thinking of Texas and Arizona specifically but there are others).

There is no easy answer.
 
TOareaFan said:
An interesting alternative would be along the lines of what I suggested above about day games. You could pick a day a week and play two games that day. "Two Game Tuesdays". Play an afternoon game at 12:30, empty out the stadium and play a night game at 7:30.
Click to expand...
We old farts remember "day-night doubleheaders". The 2002 Collective Agreement with the players prohibited these, although it could of course be revisited (the CA would have to be reopened in any case to change the playoff structure).

This is, of course, getting us far afield from the issue of an NFL stadium at the Portlands.
 
TOareaFan said:
The biggest problem that baseball has with expanding their schedule is how do you do it and still fit in 162 games of regular season. The season already starts earlier than it used to and ends later (due to the last expansion of the playoffs). The world series used to be nicknamed "the October classic"....last year, even though it only went 5 games, the W.S. ended on November 1! With a seven game W.S. you are likely looking at last year ending on about November 5th.

Adding another 8 teams means adding a full round of playoffs. Assuming those would be 7 game series, that is a minimum of 10 and more likely 14 days to the play off schedule.....so you are looking at a baseball season not ending until after the middle of November.

Baseball (for the sake of the fans and the players) should not be played in the weather that many of the teams would face in mid-November.

I guess you could shorten the regular season by two weeks (that is probably 10 or 12 games of shortening).....but that is taking 10 revenue days away from all the teams while only 8 have the benefit of the extra play off revenue.....that would be an issue. Also, baseball is such a statistically driven sport, it is more important in baseball that the basis for their records be on a fairly consistant basis. All of a sudden shrinking to a 152 game sched probably means that every record gets duplicated in the books (pre and post) or gets an asterik?

An interesting alternative would be along the lines of what I suggested above about day games. You could pick a day a week and play two games that day. "Two Game Tuesdays". Play an afternoon game at 12:30, empty out the stadium and play a night game at 7:30. If you did this for the months of August and July you would preserve the 162 game schedule but do it in about 2 weeks less time while preserving the number of revenue generation games.

As good and logical as that sounded to me when I first heard it, I now see 3 flaws in it. 1. wear and tear on players (particularly pitchers).....2. it doubles the effect of bad weather if Murphy's law comes into play and you get a bunch of bad weather Tuesdays (you now have to find a place in the schedule to redo 2 games.......3. Some markets are not really good for day baseball in July and August (thinking of Texas and Arizona specifically but there are others).

There is no easy answer.
Click to expand...

1. I think we need to get over the NEED to have 182 games (I think stats purposes is kinda rediculous. Myself I am a basketball fan... as much as Id like to compare someone like WILT to SHAQ, even if I use stats, the argument breaks down because the game has changed through the eras. I dont think many people would ever say because WILT scored 100pts in a game he was better then SHAQ yet alone KOBE or JORDAN.....)

2. WHY NOY JUST GET RID OF THE PRESEASON.... Skip straight into the regular season... Realistically because there will be more teams in the playoffs the first few months wont matter so much.. SO its not like the teams wont have enough time to iron out their kinks...
 
sixrings said:
1. I think we need to get over the NEED to have 182 games (I think stats purposes is kinda rediculous. Myself I am a basketball fan... as much as Id like to compare someone like WILT to SHAQ, even if I use stats, the argument breaks down because the game has changed through the eras. I dont think many people would ever say because WILT scored 100pts in a game he was better then SHAQ yet alone KOBE or JORDAN.....)

2. WHY NOY JUST GET RID OF THE PRESEASON.... Skip straight into the regular season... Realistically because there will be more teams in the playoffs the first few months wont matter so much.. SO its not like the teams wont have enough time to iron out their kinks...
Click to expand...

1. I don't know a single basketball fan who doesn't think that Wilt Chamberlain was better than Shaq (better than Shaq ever dreamed of being actually)......any comparison with the other two is a bit more difficult given they played different positions.......here is a recent list that happens to include all the players you mention........http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...he-10-greatest-players-in-nba-history/page/12

1a) baseball is already under 182 games.....they play 162.

2. I am no baseball expert but I do know that baseball is the least likely of all sports to eliminate "pre-season" there is a real purpose to spring training in terms of getting pitchers arms stretched out and the like. Without a spring training you would start the baseball season with starting pitchers unable to go longer than 2 or 3 innings.
 
Last edited:
TOareaFan said:
1. I don't know a single basketball fan who doesn't think that Wilt Chamberlain was better than Shaq (better than Shaq ever dreamed of being actually)......any comparison with the other two is a bit more difficult given they played different positions.......1a) baseball is already under 182 games.....they play 162.

2. I am no baseball expert but I do know that baseball is the least likely of all sports to eliminate "pre-season" there is a real purpose to spring training in terms of getting pitchers arms stretched out and the like. Without a spring training you would start the baseball season with starting pitchers unable to go longer than 2 or 3 innings.
Click to expand...

1. OK I will admit that some people will look at stats and think that about WILT but then again some people think Jerry WEST was maybe the best PG of all time. I disagree. Ive watched the retro games and when you look at what WEST was guarding there was a reason he had so many steals a game... People were practically dribbling the ball at their shoulder level.. Same with WILT, its not his fault but he was physically just that much bigger then anyone else.. Do I think either of these two players could match up in their prime to a Allen Iverson or a SHAQ, NO. But the stats make them Immortal.. I guess thats what baseball likes. 1A I realized there were only 162 games I made a typo.... Anyways then why not just play 81 GAMEs and then just double everyones stats to compare with history.. Sure add that asterick if you want.. Playing fewer games, might make the game easier to follow. The stadiums, other then new york and boston, are almost always a third empty anyways.. SO taking half the games out will just force the spectators to watch the fewer home games. Maybe that will mean actually full stadiums and good atmosphere.. The teams dont need to pay for all that extra security, extra concessions, extra everything because they are only playing half the games.. As for your players, theoretically you will have less injuries (Another PLUS.)
 
GenerationW said:
Interesting that they can now be called meaningless games (maybe because Rogers took a financial bath from this deal), but these were the first appearance of regular season NFL games in Toronto, and it was certainly not promoted as anything close to meaningless. When Ted Rogers infamously boasted that people would be lined up to Queen Street buying tickets, it was sold as a premium one-of-a-kind event, or, I would argue, something close to playoff games. This was a massively promoted venture, not some cheesy lingerie football game.

But even ignoring that, how can the claim that it's an absolute certainty demand for Jays playoff tickets would be through the roof go unchallenged? When the Jays were drawing in the 50,000 range for regular season games, they capped seasons tickets at 26,000. Last I heard, they are struggling to get to 10,000 nowadays.

"Me and all my friends are Jays fans" isn't exactly a convincing case for this massive yet apparently mostly invisible fan base.

That 2008 figure is a completely b/s number. Paul Beeston said that from '09 they'd only count actual sold seats, which was a polite way of saying Paul Godfrey fabricated attendance. 2008 was closer to 20K than 30K, and that calls into question the published attendance throughout Godfrey reign.

Football has been part of the fabric of the city for even longer, and the Argos get better TV ratings than the Jays. Can't wait to hear your case for them.
Click to expand...

You are the biggest bulshitter on the forums. You can't even prove they get 10k.

"You heard" I'm sure you did. Liar.
 
theterribleone said:
You are the biggest bulshitter on the forums. You can't even prove they get 10k.

"You heard" I'm sure you did. Liar.
Click to expand...
What are you, twelve? Did someone steal your lunch at school?

No one can prove it because they don't publicly release how many season ticket holders they have. Bob McCown estimated 10K a few years ago, so I think it's safe to assume that still applies, unless you know better, or you doubt Bob.
 
GenerationW said:
What are you, twelve? Did someone steal your lunch at school?

No one can prove it because they don't publicly release how many season ticket holders they have. Bob McCown estimated 10K a few years ago, so I think it's safe to assume that still applies, unless you know better, or you doubt Bob.
Click to expand...

This coming from a person who acts like he is three. You can call me out when you stop acting like an attention whore.


"No one can" So why make an assumption? Unless you are just being an ass. And no I don't believe Bob either, he has no facts. He is a loudmouth and full of hot air (much like you.)
 
theterribleone said:
"No one can" So why make an assumption? Unless you are just being an ass. And no I don't believe Bob either, he has no facts. He is a loudmouth and full of hot air (much like you.)
Click to expand...

I don't know, either GenW or Bob McCowan...so on the surface of it I would not know if their facts are accurate......and the Jays do not release their season ticket numbers (although they were happy to do so in the early nineties when it was around 25k and capped)....we can, however, deduce that the number is no higher than 10k from these three facts:

1. They have stated that their announced attendance is "tickets sold"
2. A season ticket represents a ticket sold for each game
3. Twice this year they have announced attendance of barely over 11k

It makes sense to me that season ticket numbers can't be over 10k.
 
You must log in or register to post here.

Back
Top