Toronto Lower Don Lands Redevelopment | ?m | ?s | Waterfront Toronto

[TOareaFan]

Not true, even the Yankees, supposedly the best best market in baseball has trouble filling seats and they make the playoffs every year. There was also times in the past they had trouble getting people in the stands when they weren't winning. So there isn't any same team in the MLB.

The Chicago Cubs record of being over 100 years since a championship kinda makes the Leaf drought look like "they won the cup last year"....and even that, playing in a small stadium, with a disproportionate number of midweek day games and sharing the market with another team.....they still get aroun 3mil people a year (+/-).....but they are kinda special!

 

[GenerationW]

Cost has a lot to do with that though. A permanent NFL tenant would be free(r) to set their prices based on the year long economics of owning/running an NFL team. As it is, they negotiated a price that they were paying to the Bills to move the series of games and had to build their pricing model off of that. All that the Bill's in Toronto games has shown is that there is a limit to how much more a Toronto NFL game can charge as compared with a Buffalo game.....we don't know what that limit is but we know the original Rogers' pricing was beyond it.

Though it's quite likely a permanent Toronto NFL team would jack up the prices for a playoff game, perhaps even higher than Bills prices.

As for Toronto being a great hockey town....it is a great Leaf town that is for sure. The owners of the Marlies, Majors and Battalion (and to a lesser extent the Generals) might argue that it is not a great hockey town.

I agree.

 

[Automation Gallery]

Many people here on this forum are trying to prove that away from hockey, no other Toronto sports team is successful.. Let alone an NFL team.
Anyways, the Raptors, Blue Jays, Rock, Toronto FC, and even the Argos aren't going anywhere and staying put right here in TO...
Now bring on the NFL. and the Stadium

 

[gei]

And it's laughable to suggest that people would be lined up across the city to buy Jays playoff tickets when one considers (Ted) Rogers said almost exactly the same thing about the Bills in Toronto series.

lol (at your comment). You're seriously comparing a random game of a non-Toronto team here with no established fan base to an established team with hundreds of thousands of fans here and decades of history?

With absolute certainty I can say the demand for Jays playoff tickets would be through the roof. If you don't believe that you clearly have no clue about the Jays or their fanbase.

 

[GenerationW]

lol (at your comment). You're seriously comparing a random game of a non-Toronto team here with no established fan base to an established team with hundreds of thousands of fans here and decades of history?

Ted Rogers owned the Jays in addition to promoting the Bills deal. Why is your judgement necessarily better than his was?

With absolute certainty I can say the demand for Jays playoff tickets would be through the roof. If you don't believe that you clearly have no clue about the Jays or their fanbase.

I went to games in 1977, what's your excuse?

Unless the opponent is the Yankees or the Red Sox, I believe they'd struggle to sell out a playoff game, and there is no evidence to suggest that demand would be through the roof.

Many people here on this forum are trying to prove that away from hockey, no other Toronto sports team is successful..

Depends on your definition of successful. Only the Leafs consistently make money. The Raptors and the Argos are probably break-even ventures at best, and according to Bob McCown the Jays were money-losers for the better part of a decade prior to reducing payroll for 2010 and '11.

They all have survived since at least 1995, so that's another form of success.

 

[gristle]

Inevitably, once the stadium gets built and the franchise arrives and promptly goes bankrupt, the venue can then be used for hovercraft races or filled with water for seadoo skeet shooting.

 

[MapleLeafs]

Inevitably, once the stadium gets built and the franchise arrives and promptly goes bankrupt, the venue can then be used for hovercraft races or filled with water for seadoo skeet shooting.

Hovercraft races? Your thinking too small! I demand naval battles!

Source: www.wesclark.com

 

[JMSRead]

The Bills series is extremely different than a Jays playoff game.

A meaningless game from an NFL team that isn't based in Toronto vs a playoff game for a city that is starved for sports success?

I can understand (though I disagree) with your pessimistic sentiment on some points, but comparing the Bills series to a local TO team's playoff game is so off the mark it's hard to get past that in your argument.

 

[Automation Gallery]

Inevitably, once the stadium gets built and the franchise arrives and promptly goes bankrupt,

I guess as a anti-sports fan and as a chronic Ford basher... your not aware of The highly successful NFL business model

A lot of this is to do with risk. The business is perfectly hedged, which means one team’s losing season and poor revenues is offset by another team’s bumper year. Along with handsome revenues ($6.5bn annually), this financial certainty keeps NFL team values high as there is little chance of any going bankrupt.

– the idea of wealth redistribution in a staunchly capitalist country.

Hey...I would think thats right up your alley. But then again you dont like Ford, NFL, and Stadiums.

 

[JMSRead]

"Great baseball towns fill the seats even when the team is out of contention."

That is not true.

New York Yankee attendance from 1989 to 1996: 26,963, 24,771, 23,009, 21,589, 29,839, 29,656, 23,521, 27,789 (From http://tinyurl.com/67yr9tf) Not coincidentaly, these were the last years the Yankees were not good. They have contended every year since 1995. Won the World Series in 1996 and haven't looked back.

Boston Red Sox attendance from 1981 to 1985: 19,637, 24,076, 22,004, 20,514, 21,922 (From http://tinyurl.com/pz7bv)

In 2003, the Detroit Tigers, one of the most storied cities in baseball drew 17,103 per game. In their history the Blue Jays have only drawn worse than that once (in 1981).

So, by your definition New York, Boston and Detroit are all bad baseball towns.

When a team has a prolonged period without a playoff race its attendance struggles. Even with the legendary teams sometimes.

The Blue Jays, without a race since 93, have averaged mostly in the low 20k's this decade, peaking at 29K in 2008. That is nothing to be proud of, but given the cirucumstances, neither it is unexpected.

I suggest you look up the history of Toronto baseball on wikipedia - the Toronto Maple Leafs baseball team in particular. Baseball has been part of the city for a VERY long time (site of Babe Ruth's first professional homerun). Nobody is saying it's close to hockey, but the sport is part of the fabric of the city (despite the recent doldrums brought on by being a perennial also ran).

 

[GenerationW]

The Bills series is extremely different than a Jays playoff game.

A meaningless game from an NFL team that isn't based in Toronto vs a playoff game for a city that is starved for sports success?

I can understand (though I disagree) with your pessimistic sentiment on some points, but comparing the Bills series to a local TO team's playoff game is so off the mark it's hard to get past that in your argument.

Interesting that they can now be called meaningless games (maybe because Rogers took a financial bath from this deal), but these were the first appearance of regular season NFL games in Toronto, and it was certainly not promoted as anything close to meaningless. When Ted Rogers infamously boasted that people would be lined up to Queen Street buying tickets, it was sold as a premium one-of-a-kind event, or, I would argue, something close to playoff games. This was a massively promoted venture, not some cheesy lingerie football game.

But even ignoring that, how can the claim that it's an absolute certainty demand for Jays playoff tickets would be through the roof go unchallenged? When the Jays were drawing in the 50,000 range for regular season games, they capped seasons tickets at 26,000. Last I heard, they are struggling to get to 10,000 nowadays.

"Me and all my friends are Jays fans" isn't exactly a convincing case for this massive yet apparently mostly invisible fan base.

The Blue Jays, without a race since 93, have averaged mostly in the low 20k's this decade, peaking at 29K in 2008. That is nothing to be proud of, but given the cirucumstances, neither it is unexpected.

I suggest you look up the history of Toronto baseball on wikipedia - the Toronto Maple Leafs baseball team in particular. Baseball has been part of the city for a VERY long time (site of Babe Ruth's first professional homerun). Nobody is saying it's close to hockey, but the sport is part of the fabric of the city (despite the recent doldrums brought on by being a perennial also ran).

That 2008 figure is a completely b/s number. Paul Beeston said that from '09 they'd only count actual sold seats, which was a polite way of saying Paul Godfrey fabricated attendance. 2008 was closer to 20K than 30K, and that calls into question the published attendance throughout Godfrey reign.

Football has been part of the fabric of the city for even longer, and the Argos get better TV ratings than the Jays. Can't wait to hear your case for them.

 

[gei]

So, by your definition New York, Boston and Detroit are all bad baseball towns.

When a team has a prolonged period without a playoff race its attendance struggles. Even with the legendary teams sometimes.

The Blue Jays, without a race since 93, have averaged mostly in the low 20k's this decade, peaking at 29K in 2008. That is nothing to be proud of, but given the cirucumstances, neither it is unexpected.

I suggest you look up the history of Toronto baseball on wikipedia - the Toronto Maple Leafs baseball team in particular. Baseball has been part of the city for a VERY long time (site of Babe Ruth's first professional homerun). Nobody is saying it's close to hockey, but the sport is part of the fabric of the city (despite the recent doldrums brought on by being a perennial also ran).

Excellent write-up!

But even ignoring that, how can the claim that it's an absolute certainty demand for Jays playoff tickets would be through the roof go unchallenged? When the Jays were drawing in the 50,000 range for regular season games, they capped seasons tickets at 26,000. Last I heard, they are struggling to get to 10,000 nowadays.

Struggling to get 10,000? There are only a handful of times in their 34 year history they have gotten under 10,000. See the above - those teams averaged attendance WORSE than ours during their losing year, and still filled the seats during the playoffs. It's not some thing that comes up and surprises you - a team has to be doing well during the year to make the playoffs - hence attendance gradually goes up and bandwagon fans start jumping on.

But ignoring all that common sense - how about the fact that EVERY SINGLE playoff game in Blue Jays history has been a sellout? And this wasn't just about the skydome being new - the Jays were selling out games well before then? Why? Believe it or not.. because they were doing well

 

[JMSRead]

I'm not disagreeing with you the Rogers miscalculated with their Bills series. But just because the public had less than expected interest in that event, does not somehow prove that Toronto would have less than expected interest in a Jays playoff series. I think you would be hardpressed to find a person knowledgeable about Toronto sports who would imagine any of the big 3 franchises here would have trouble selling out a playoff game.

The closest we come to a Jays playoff game every year is the home opener. And every year it is sold out. I tried to get my tickets in March this year and the best I could do was the 500s. It sold out very quickly. The reason it's always sold out is that it's an event - just as a playoff series would be.

""Me and all my friends are Jays fans" isn't exactly a convincing case for this massive yet apparently mostly invisible fan base."

I'm not sure when I made that argument. I never said the Blue Jays had a massive fan base. But a good one? Sure. Attendance has been lacklustre, but TV ratings have generally been excellent. This season they are averaging over 500K a game (http://tinyurl.com/3vox7vu). For comparisons sake the Raptors would often see numbers in the 150 to 250K range (http://tinyurl.com/yzu24zz), and the FC often under or around 100K (http://tinyurl.com/6ynwdro). Even regional Leaf games drew about 650K last year (http://tinyurl.com/3t77ebn). Caveat - the Jays games are national, and the Leafs are only available in Southern Ontario - so those ratings aren't directly comparable. HNIC regularly does well over a million. Still, considering the incredible popularity of the Leafs that's an impressive comparison.

Yes, under Godfrey, the Blue Jays counted comps as attendance. While that number may not be 'accurate', many MLB teams count their attendance that way. The Tampa Bay Rays gave away something like 20K free tickets to their final game of 2010 and counted it as a sellout. So while that 29K might have been higher than it should have been, so are many other teams attendance numbers.

"Football has been part of the fabric of the city for even longer, and the Argos get better TV ratings than the Jays. Can't wait to hear your case for them."

Absolutely! I'm not bashing the Argos at all. They do have a great history here. National CFL games do draw something in the 800k range, which is very impressive. However, it is difficult to directly compare that to the Blue Jays. #1 - There are two Canadian home markets for all Argo games. So I think it safe to say that the Toronto viewership of those numbers are probably something like half the total number. #2 - The Blue Jays play 162 games. The Argos play 18. That's a fairly massive difference. It's obviously much easier to attract eyeballs once a week than every single day.

I'm not remotely bashing any other Toronto franchise. I'm a fan of all the teams, and I want them all to be successful. I'm also not saying the Blue Jays are some powerhouse that dominate the Canadian sporting landscape. I'm just saying that I think there is often a misconception among casual or non sports fans that the Blue Jays and baseball have much less of an audience (and potential audience) than they actually do. That's all.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

And... just to nudge this thread back towards its subject... we humble taxpayers no longer pay anything (and in fact reap positive cashflow) from the Rogers Centre and Jays. Whereas, all the NFL fanboys want us to spend hundreds of millions of dollars despite federal, provincial, and municipal deficits, so a team owner can make a whack of cash and they can watch 3 hours of mind-numbing non-action eight times a year without driving a couple of hours.

 

[JMSRead]

Good point. Apologies for going so far off the rails.