Toronto Lower Don Lands Redevelopment | ?m | ?s | Waterfront Toronto

[MapleLeafs]

So i assume your saying this might be illegal..

Meeting with Rogers

The Globe has learned that NFL football in Toronto was discussed in a March meeting between Rogers officials and Doug Ford.

According to the city’s lobbyist registry, Councillor Ford in mid-March met with three Rogers executives, including Rogers Media president Keith Pelly, who oversees the company’s sports assets, including the Rogers Centre and the Blue Jays.

The registry indicates the three officials sought the meeting to discuss “cell towers.” But Rogers spokesperson Jan Innes said they also discussed the “Bills in Toronto” series with the mayor’s brother.

The communications giant in recent years has drawn huge crowds to regular season matches at the Rogers Centre between the Buffalo Bills and other NFL teams. Ms. Innes stressed the meeting was purely an “informational session.”

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news.../?utm_medium=Feeds: RSS/Atom&utm_source=Toron to&utm_content=2003068

The NFL has considerably more strict ownership laws then the NHL and MLB. The OTPP and Rogers are not allowed to purchase a team per NFL bylaws.

Yes....let's always take SkyDome as the example that shows that all stadiums require "huge subsidization" while ignoring, say, the ACC which required, and received, no public funds!!!

Fun game this! Kinda like saying the Montreal Olympics lost a lot of money therefore all Olympics do/did (conveniently ignoring the examples of the games that made money).

In the case of Toronto, you really do only have one example of a large stadium being built in recent memory and that is Rogers Centre. Fair or not, you are going to have those comparisons made.

The Air Canada Centre was also a fairly different situation. You had a guaranteed anchor tenant in the Raptors (with the Leafs tagging on later), you had the opportunity to build one of the first large and modern concert venues in the GTA, and it costs a hell of a lot less then an NFL stadium. In the NFL case you would be building a very expensive stadium (likely exceeding $1 billion), you don't have a guarantee that the NFL will move a team to Toronto (the old "If you build it, they will come" adage doesn't hold true anymore, just ask Hamilton and Kansas City to name a few), and even if an NFL team does move to Toronto, you are looking at a mere 8-10 dates being filled a year (which doesn't bode well financially).

 

[Big Daddy]

Fair enough, Based on NFL rules and the extreme unlikeliness of government money, I revert to my original position - aint no way in H this is ever going to happen.

I'm afraid we must settle for the Argos and/or watching occassional Bills games - neither of which is in any way interesting.

I nominate this thread for the "fantasy" section.

 

[TOareaFan]

In the case of Toronto, you really do only have one example of a large stadium being built in recent memory and that is Rogers Centre. Fair or not, you are going to have those comparisons made.

The Air Canada Centre was also a fairly different situation. You had a guaranteed anchor tenant in the Raptors (with the Leafs tagging on later), you had the opportunity to build one of the first large and modern concert venues in the GTA, and it costs a hell of a lot less then an NFL stadium. In the NFL case you would be building a very expensive stadium (likely exceeding $1 billion), you don't have a guarantee that the NFL will move a team to Toronto (the old "If you build it, they will come" adage doesn't hold true anymore, just ask Hamilton and Kansas City to name a few), and even if an NFL team does move to Toronto, you are looking at a mere 8-10 dates being filled a year (which doesn't bode well financially).

A private sector builder would only build if they were guaranteed a team....so the "anchor" would be there.....I doubt that anyone is going to build a Dallas type stadium here and I doubt it is going to be domed....a stadium more along the lines of what was built in Seattle/Philadelphia/NE/Nashville/Washington...all of which are well equipped, modern, large and outdoor stadiums and considerably less costly than $1B.

The "guaranteed" profit would be in the football team and the stadium would be just a facilitator/capital requirement to get the team.....any additional revenues the stadium could generate would be "bonus" and certainly not worth the risk that would be inherent in taking the stadium cost into Dallas/Meadowlands territory to try and achieve.....unless you could (as Dallas did) sell personal seat licenses for $500 million to contribute to the cost.

A pretty good point of reference is that the Minnesota Vikings estimate the cost of the new stadium they are trying to get built to be $700 million......adding a fixed roof (something they don't want/need but are willing to consider if it is tied to the public funding), they say, brings that to $900 million. Last I read, they were willing to contribute 1/3 of the $700 million and none of the additional $200 million if the public purse demanded there be a roof!

So, I think, a better estimate of the cost of a stadium in Toronto is the $700 million figure (as opposed to "upwards of a Billion" that people throw around).

EDIT: Also interesting and convenient to note that the Vikings' current position is that with one season left on their lease at the HHH Metrodome they will not sign any extension to that lease unless there is a deal in place to replace the stadium....so the Vikings may serve as more than just a model on the cost of the stadium...they may soon become a potentia/candidatel team to transfer to Toronto!

 

[sixrings]

The stadium would have to be domed... Maybe not retractable but Domed.. The NFL season starts later and finishes later then the CFL. We cant have outdoor football in January in Toronto... Well I should say we can but I dont believe we will have people show up to watch... If it was my franchise Id build a dome like the glass roof of the eaton centre.. Feels like outdoors but warm year round..

 

[TOareaFan]

The stadium would have to be domed... Maybe not retractable but Domed.. The NFL season starts later and finishes later then the CFL. We cant have outdoor football in January in Toronto... Well I should say we can but I dont believe we will have people show up to watch... If it was my franchise Id build a dome like the glass roof of the eaton centre.. Feels like outdoors but warm year round..

I hadn't factored in the much milder climate of Minnesota when I suggested their stadium issue/debate as a model for discussion......sorry

 

[Earth Heals Herself]

The stadium would have to be domed... Maybe not retractable but Domed.. The NFL season starts later and finishes later then the CFL. We cant have outdoor football in January in Toronto... Well I should say we can but I dont believe we will have people show up to watch... If it was my franchise Id build a dome like the glass roof of the eaton centre.. Feels like outdoors but warm year round..

Why wouldn't people show up to watch? They have an outdoor stadium in New England and Pittsburgh. It's just as cold there and they still sell out every game. People would come no matter how cold it is. Also, when you're surrounded by people on all sides, the collective body heat would keep you toasty enough, if not that alone, the booze would. If a stadium gets built, I would hope it would be an outdoor one. Domed stadiums have no atmosphere and football is meant to be played outdoors, in variable weather.

 

[sixrings]

The prices they would charge to go to the game would demand not just the joe blow Torontonians to support the team at the gate but also the SUITS... Toronto sports have become accustomed to the luxuries of the ACC and the warmth of the dome... Although there maybe will be some die hards like the TFC crowd, whoever owns the team will do its best to make money of its premium seats... I dont know how you think its comparable new england or Pittsburgh.

 

[TOareaFan]

The prices they would charge to go to the game would demand not just the joe blow Torontonians to support the team at the gate but also the SUITS... Toronto sports have become accustomed to the luxuries of the ACC and the warmth of the dome... Although there maybe will be some die hards like the TFC crowd, whoever owns the team will do its best to make money of its premium seats... I dont know how you think its comparable new england or Pittsburgh.

The stadiums in Chicago and NE and Philadelphia are outdoor in cold weather, business, cities that host games with a good mix of average Joe tickets and suits/business tickets. Private boxes, club seating areas, covered seating and restos/lounges (like ACC) can and are built into modern outdoor stadia.

 

[Earth Heals Herself]

The prices they would charge to go to the game would demand not just the joe blow Torontonians to support the team at the gate but also the SUITS... Toronto sports have become accustomed to the luxuries of the ACC and the warmth of the dome... Although there maybe will be some die hards like the TFC crowd, whoever owns the team will do its best to make money of its premium seats... I dont know how you think its comparable new england or Pittsburgh.

I compared based on weather, alone. Even if they built a dome stadium, those same corporate seats would sit empty for half the game. Toronto a city of greed. It's true sports fans are given the shaft. It's hilarious tuning into a Leaf's game and seeing the platinum seats a quarter full for the first half of each period.

 

[Earth Heals Herself]

I can't figure out why corporate boxes are even needed in Toronto. There are more than enough people in this city to fill the ACC everytime the Leafs or Raptors are playing. Why do the suits even bother showing up if they're just going to sit in their suites, eating their shrimp platters? They could go elsewhere and look equally as pretentious. At least move their seats to the mid section of the ACC. Why give them the best seats in the house, only to have them sit empty?

 

[TOareaFan]

I can't figure out why corporate boxes are even needed in Toronto. There are more than enough people in this city to fill the ACC everytime the Leafs or Raptors are playing. Why do the suits even bother showing up if they're just going to sit in their suites, eating their shrimp platters? They could go elsewhere and look equally as pretentious. At least move their seats to the mid section of the ACC. Why give them the best seats in the house, only to have them sit empty?

Before I answer that....is it a serious question?

 

[Earth Heals Herself]

Before I answer that....is it a serious question?

Yes. Professional sports leagues did fine prior to becoming corporate. Were the Leafs hurting when they played at Maple Leaf Gardens? Remember when $80 for a gold seat was the most expensive ticket in the house? There is no need for all this corporate sponsorship. Unfortunately pro sports aren't even about the respective game anymore.

 

[sixrings]

you answered your own question.... its not about the game anymore.,... its about money for both the owners and the players... they want to sell the tickets to who ever will pay the most money for each ticket. If they could sell out every game for twice as much as they do now but knew zero people would actually show up to the game.,. They would still sell the tickets... What would you do if you were a businessman.. if you answer Id take half and have a full house then it explains why you arent a business man or are not a successful business man.

 

[Big Daddy]

I can't believe there are 6 pages devoted to this completely impossible idea.

The only positive to this idea is that any proponent would not be mired down by the same expectations of winning that most sports teams have to contend with - in Toronto, winning is considered an unnessessary luxury - think of the money that would save long term.

 

[GenerationW]

What I don't understand is even if we build a football stadium with the capacity to hold an NFL crowd, why would this instantly give Toronto an NFL team? I don't think the NFL is as willing to expand into the Canadian market as the Ford's think they are. They tested the market by bringing the Bills to Toronto, and that didn't work out too well.

Hamilton built Copps Coliseum in the expectation they'd get an NHL expansion team soon after. It was supposed to be a sure thing. That was 1985, and Hamilton is still waiting.

If its a dome which i assume it would be, you could be looking at over 100 events a year.

I didn't know it was possible to book 90 monster truck shows in a year.

Guys..there are people in Toronto willing to take that challenge, thats franchise fee and stadium.

Guys have shown interest in a second GTA NHL team, but I haven't heard anyone since Ted Rogers say they'd back an NFL team. Where are all your "people"?

Pardon my french but are you %^&*?! I'm going to assume that you've never had the joy of observing a live NFL game.

They were okay experiences, but hardly filled with joy. An NCAA game is a far better spectacle to see live.

I think this was just a trial balloon floated by the Fords, and I'll bet anyone $50 nothing comes of this.