Toronto Kipling Station Transit Hub | ?m | 2s | Metrolinx | SAI

BurlOak said:
Going from Kipling to Honeydale to Sherway to Dixie GO is almost the same distance as following Dundas and having stations at Cloverdale and Dixie GO.

The only parts of Dundas not served would be:
- Honeydale vs. Cloverdale - a virtual trade-off since they are only a few hundred metres away from each other.
- A 1 km section through 427 and Etobicoke Creek that will never be developed.
- A 1.5 km section west of Etobicoke Creek, but I am not sure if there would have been a station at Wharton Way.

So going to Honeydale along the GO corridor is much less expensive initially, and it still maintains westwards expansion towards Dixie just as good or better than the Dundas route.
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That's fair.
drum118 said:
As I stated in the past and was stated by the team at the meeting, the subway extension west of Kipling using the rail corridor is dead as there is no room in it to support the 4 tracks for the Milton Line expansion and TTC.

The one thing about this terminal location and any expansion for the subway is the grade that will be needed to get under the tunnel between GO and the terminal as well the condo. You may have 400 m in total from the end of the Kipling station to the condo and this would put the grade in the range at about 5%-10% and would be the steepest in the system.

By going this route will be done my a TBM vs going along Dundas as a cut and fill.

Why I have stated using Dundas going west to Dixie, it the centre of any redevelopment along the corridor with shorter walking distance than running it beside the rail corridor on the surface. Also, you would have to expropriate everything in the way of the subway expansion that includes residential, new business and retail.

With the new extension, TTC gains the spaces it need that can't be added to Kipling for buses, as well the lost $$$ for the dead heading running time of buses to/from it including MT. A larger parking area that removes cars off Dundas going to/from Kipling today that will make Dundas more livable.

The driving factor for this location terminal is Islington itself, as it falling apart with the current roof/bus bay that has to be rebuilt and not worth the money to do so as that area is going to be replace by a condo. Its costing somewhere around $20m tobuild a temporarily terminal on the old Legion land with TTC buses using the south non roof bus bays. It doesn't have the washrooms it once had as TTC not willing to spend the money to replace them which is dumb considering how long a bus ride is to get to/from it, the extra 15 minutes going to/from Kipling or the 25 minute ride to Yonge stations with washrooms.

The only area I know on Dundas that will not see development is between 427 and the west side of Etobicoke Creek due to ramps. Everything east of 427 is to be redevelop.

These 2 projects would cover 1/7 of the cost to built the subway extension.

One thing that struck me at the meeting was where were the Ford Brothers who represent Etobicoke and the pusher of subways? Rob was losing a battle for his seat at a mayor debate. Ford has never come out once in supporting a subway in his area, yet goes after one outside of it.
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Drum, once it gets to Dixie, people in Mississauga will want Square One. Just going to Cloverdale is fine. Build a new bus terminal there or in the Honeydale Parking lot.
 
drum118 said:
How do you plan on getting the subway from Sherway to Dixie with the rail corridor off the table and miss servicing 100,000+ need residents/employees between those 2 stations??
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Toronto only tunnels now anyway. You just tunnel in a curved line to Dixie. I drew it on a map. I'm sure a transit planner could too.

What's in between Dixie and Sherway anyway? Not a heck of a lot. How many people actually walk to the subway anyway? As is mentioned in many subway expansion threads, most of the ridership comes from the buses, so I see the same thing happening here.
 
Interesting how Peter Milczyn has preferred pushing for an extension north up The East Mall (I believe), rather than south towards Sherway Gardens (and beyond).

Now that's he's M.P.P., I wonder how much of a voice he'll have on this.
 
drum118 said:
As I stated in the past and was stated by the team at the meeting, the subway extension west of Kipling using the rail corridor is dead as there is no room in it to support the 4 tracks for the Milton Line expansion and TTC.

The one thing about this terminal location and any expansion for the subway is the grade that will be needed to get under the tunnel between GO and the terminal as well the condo. You may have 400 m in total from the end of the Kipling station to the condo and this would put the grade in the range at about 5%-10% and would be the steepest in the system.
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  • The first phase would be a simple extension just on the north side of the railway ROW (maybe need to expropriate a 6m swath to widen it, but I do not think so).
  • It would continue at grade to the East Mall (Honeydale). This Honeydale station would be 350m away from a Cloverdale station - essentially the exact same catchment area.
  • The next phase would require tunnelling to get under the railway and 427. There is 400m to drop the 10m or so to get under those obstacles.
  • The extraction site for the 1.5km tunnel would be in the parking lot of Sherway, where the station would be located.
  • The tail-tracks would be cut-and-cover under West Mall.
  • Depending on where the line will continue to, a new tunnel launch site could be located just west of the West Mall, or it could still elevate over Etobocoke Creek with a steep, but still reasonable slope.

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TOareaFan said:
Like YRT, BRT/Zum will connect with the subway at two stops on the Spadina extension (the 501 and the 501A are going to separate stations as I understand it). Not sure which line of Zum would/could logically extend to Kipling.
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I presume this refers to an express bus between Kipling and Woodbridge (YRT) and an express bus between Kipling and somewhere in Brampton, likely Bramalea Town Centre (BT), both using the 427?
 
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BurlOak said:
  • The first phase would be a simple extension just on the north side of the railway ROW (maybe need to expropriate a 6m swath to widen it, but I do not think so).
  • It would continue at grade to the East Mall (Honeydale). This Honeydale station would be 350m away from a Cloverdale station - essentially the exact same catchment area.
  • The next phase would require tunnelling to get under the railway and 427. There is 400m to drop the 10m or so to get under those obstacles.
  • The extraction site for the 1.5km tunnel would be in the parking lot of Sherway, where the station would be located.
  • The tail-tracks would be cut-and-cover under West Mall.
  • Depending on where the line will continue to, a new tunnel launch site could be located just west of the West Mall, or it could still elevate over Etobocoke Creek with a steep, but still reasonable slope.

View attachment 30118
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Issue 1: You have about 250 m to the GO Tunnel and you need to be down 15-20 m min by then from the current west end of the station, not the trail track.

Issue 2: You need to be down 35-50 m by the time you hit the condo as there 3/4 levels of parking there.

Issue 3 You will raze most of the plazas & industry west of the condo to get to grade to go over Shorncliffe Rd. Doing so will create empty unused land until development surface for it.

Issue 4: You need to do a deep dive for the Honeydale terminal to get under both the rail corridor and the East Mall which is no simple feat going over Shorncliffe. You are better off being below grade. You are creating a roller coaster engineering nightmare in designing it and building it as well having equipment not being able to handle it.

Issue 5: You just reduce the development land unless there is provision for development to be built over your plan.

Issue 6: You have created a greater walking distance than a central one being beside the rail corridor.

Issue 7: There is nothing at Sherway to support a station there now nor 50 years from now other than a mall, 3 towers and strip malls. Look how long it took to get One Sherway towers sold and built.

Issue 8: You need to raze Homes and industrial going west of Etobicoke Creek as well a GO station to take the line to Dixie. You are asking people to spend 5-10 minutes walking to a bus route as buses will still have to run along Dundas to service the area.

Issue 9: Based on the design of the terminal that just been posted, next to no room for any extension, let alone room for construction of one without having an impact on the terminal.

Issue 10: All the south side of Dundas has development plan for it from Kipling to 427 and having the line going along Dundas, it allows the north side to be develop, but at a slower rate since you have an old low density area there now.

As someone who push for the subway to Sq One in the past, I have step back from it if EU equipment can be used on the Milton Line. Doing so, you run a Tram-Train on the line that will branch off before the Cooksville station and use the Hurontario LRT line to get to Sq One.

Under long range view, you will only have an BRT going west until Dundas gets redevelop before moving to an LRT. The LRT will only run as far west as Hurontario without trying to push it to either Mavis or Erindale Station Rd. Taking an LRT west of any of the 3 location will be costly as there is no density there now nor down the road unless you tear everything down and start fresh. Oakville and Burlington are even worse that they will never see an LRT on Dundas.

Cloverdale/Honeydale is as far west the line will go for the next 50 years.

Don't expect to see a launch site west of East Mall as there is no money for any extension at this time and will be only for the one stop if the money is found for it. 2016 will tell us more about it.

Nor aware of Peter idea of going up East Mall with an extension as there has been a plan to go to the airport from Cloverdale, but was on the 427. Since MTO will not allow transit only lanes on 427, it either has to be underground or Elevated with an option to use a different route.
 
1. There is a pedestrian tunnel at the east end of the platform. That is already under the TTC tracks.

2. There is room between the GO tracks and the condo – no need to go under the condo.

3. One factory may be affected. Much of the industry will be removed for redevelopment.

4. Oh, now I see what wrong. I was planning on going above Shorncliffe and East Mall, not under. My point was to build the extension to Honeydale to have a station near the 427 for as cheap as possible.

5, 6. The short distance between Honeydale and Cloverdale means there is virtually no difference on the development potential of the area.

7. At Sherway, there is land and the mall owner could jointly contribute and the box stores could be redeveloped.

8. I have not put that much thought into where the line would go after Honeydale. It could go south to Sherway. It could also tunnel under the 427 and Etobicoke Creek and join back up with Dundas. I also do not know where it would go after Dixie. Does it follow Dundas to Hurontario, or, does it go up to Sq.1 – like I said, I have not considered it that much, but the extension to Honeydale does not preclude any farther westward extension.

9. The terminal that is posted is assuming there is no extension happening to the subway, so of course it does not allow for expansion. The thing is EITEHR we build the terminal at Kipling, while maintaining an active subway, bus and GO station, OR, we extend the subway one stop and build the necessary infrastructure away from any active transit areas. We do not do both – and with the less disruption at a Honeydale location, and the possibility of an at-grade extension, the additional costs may not be as much as it first appears.

10. The 350m distance from Honeydale station at CPR and Cloverdale station at Dundas will not be enough to affect the development of the lands – especially the south which you say will be more dense.

I agree that it does not need to go the Sherway at this time, nor does it need to go beyond Honeydale. I was just showing that options are still open.

There is no reason to go to the airport. Finch, Eglinton and UPE already go there. A 427 bus from Honeydale to Pearson would be more than enough.
 
BurlOak said:
1. There is a pedestrian tunnel at the east end of the platform. That is already under the TTC tracks.

2. There is room between the GO tracks and the condo – no need to go under the condo.

3. One factory may be affected. Much of the industry will be removed for redevelopment.

4. Oh, now I see what wrong. I was planning on going above Shorncliffe and East Mall, not under. My point was to build the extension to Honeydale to have a station near the 427 for as cheap as possible.

5, 6. The short distance between Honeydale and Cloverdale means there is virtually no difference on the development potential of the area.

7. At Sherway, there is land and the mall owner could jointly contribute and the box stores could be redeveloped.

8. I have not put that much thought into where the line would go after Honeydale. It could go south to Sherway. It could also tunnel under the 427 and Etobicoke Creek and join back up with Dundas. I also do not know where it would go after Dixie. Does it follow Dundas to Hurontario, or, does it go up to Sq.1 – like I said, I have not considered it that much, but the extension to Honeydale does not preclude any farther westward extension.

9. The terminal that is posted is assuming there is no extension happening to the subway, so of course it does not allow for expansion. The thing is EITEHR we build the terminal at Kipling, while maintaining an active subway, bus and GO station, OR, we extend the subway one stop and build the necessary infrastructure away from any active transit areas. We do not do both – and with the less disruption at a Honeydale location, and the possibility of an at-grade extension, the additional costs may not be as much as it first appears.

10. The 350m distance from Honeydale station at CPR and Cloverdale station at Dundas will not be enough to affect the development of the lands – especially the south which you say will be more dense.

I agree that it does not need to go the Sherway at this time, nor does it need to go beyond Honeydale. I was just showing that options are still open.

There is no reason to go to the airport. Finch, Eglinton and UPE already go there. A 427 bus from Honeydale to Pearson would be more than enough.
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I am talking about the new tunnel from the new bus terminal to the GO platform at the west end.

How do you expect to get around the condo as there is "NO" land south of it that it can use for the extension other than going under it?? It was stated at the meeting also.

Even with the UPX going to the airport, Metrolinx has talked about a line from Kipling to the airport. As to what is still debatable.
 
drum118 said:
I am talking about the new tunnel from the new bus terminal to the GO platform at the west end.

How do you expect to get around the condo as there is "NO" land south of it that it can use for the extension other than going under it?? It was stated at the meeting also.

Even with the UPX going to the airport, Metrolinx has talked about a line from Kipling to the airport. As to what is still debatable.
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A new tunnel could just as easily be an elevated bridge instead of a tunnel.

I remember reading (I think it was Steve Munros site or comments in his site) that were no underground parking garage or other structure beyond the above visible portion of the condo at the end of Subway Crescent. Thus, it appears there is easily an 8 to 10m swath that can be taken immediately adjacent to the rail corridor - but of course some type of retaining wall and sound wall would be needed.
 
drum118 said:
I am talking about the new tunnel from the new bus terminal to the GO platform at the west end.

How do you expect to get around the condo as there is "NO" land south of it that it can use for the extension other than going under it?? It was stated at the meeting also.

Even with the UPX going to the airport, Metrolinx has talked about a line from Kipling to the airport. As to what is still debatable.
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How would this work?
 
Fix the flooding at Kipling Station first, so that it doesn't happen again.

[video=youtube_share;kw8YTymz-is]http://youtu.be/kw8YTymz-is[/video]

From July, 2013.

How quickly we forget. I'll be worried about any underground or lower sections at and around Kipling Station. The rainfall falling on the parking lots around Kipling Station has to go somewhere, it'll be the lowest area. They should be building dry wells, ponds, and floodplains of some sort to hold the flood waters.
 
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drum118 said:
7: There is nothing at Sherway to support a station there now nor 50 years from now other than a mall, 3 towers and strip malls. Look how long it took to get One Sherway towers sold and built.

Cloverdale/Honeydale is as far west the line will go for the next 50 years.

Nor aware of Peter idea of going up East Mall with an extension as there has been a plan to go to the airport from Cloverdale, but was on the 427. Since MTO will not allow transit only lanes on 427, it either has to be underground or Elevated with an option to use a different route.
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Not sure if this should post should be here or the Transitway thread...

As an alternative to get to Square 1 I beleive:

- Bloor subway line should be extended to Cloverdale/East Mall and Dundas via the "cut and cover" method. Dundas is fairly wide and can handle 2-3 lanes being closed (of 7 including median) at one time. If it is done correctly and quickly it should only take 2-3 months (penalties/incentives in contract terms with construction company). The "rip off the bandaid" approach vs slow and painful. The station box would be north of Dundas (which takes longer to build) and would not impede traffic.

- Cut and cover goes from railroad ROW to Dundas St behing Bowlerama and through Enterprise/McD's. 3-4 commercial buildings may be required to be expropriated (with similar purposes promised to be rebuilt in a transit-friendly building with condos on top).

- Create a true BRT lane on Dundas from East Mall to the hydro ROW at Wharton. Dundas is 6 lanes + a median + large grassy strips on both sides of the street. Would reduce Dundas down to 4 lanes (+ left hand turn lanes at lights).

- create a BRT road (similar to the York U one) from Dundas to just before Eglington (8 intersections only...some which are minor and can be stop lights...others over time could be bridged) where the Eastgate Parkway/Transitway ROW ends.

This would ensure that the Missisauga bus routes have a ROW all the way to the subway (Transitway, Burnathorpe, Bloor, etc would use this ROW).

The connection from Kipling GO to TTC does need to be more integrated. However, I question the future need for the large bus terminal. I wonder the cost breakdown between the 2? (alternatively build a more economical bus terminal and keep the nice connections between TTC and GO)
 
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