Toronto Icestorm of 2013

[pman]

To those pushing underground just a little info

The cost of a Wooden hydro pole can range anywhere between $5000 to $15,000. Depending on the topper and number of services.

Underground usually starts at $25,000. But that doesn't include the backfill, wiring, etc etc.

It's simple panic mode to invest in underground.

It's simple blindness to fail to include the cost of unreliability in comparisons of the cost of underground electrical distribution versus the Toronto model. The costs of our system include:
system repair costs after ice storms (and the climate change forecast calls for more of these in the future)
ongoing tree pruning expenses
private losses from hydro failures, such as relocation costs, home damage from burst pipes, and loss of use of normal household functions
private losses from installing backup generators because the system is unreliable (I have one and it wasn't cheap)

For that matter, the power doesn't only go out when we have ice storms. Our neighbour's tree toppled spontaneously a couple of summers ago and it knocked out power to the entire side of their street.

Forget the esthetics of our frontier-town overhead wires, which are hideous enough. Surely we place some economic value on having a reliable electricity supply?

 

[MisterF]

The prevalence of overhead power lines isn't just a Toronto problem, it's an Ontario problem. Ottawa just did a full rebuilt of Bank Street through the Glebe, one of their most popular areas, and the wooden poles and power lines are still there. The contrast with Vancouver and Montreal is striking. Even Calgary, a city with at best 3 or 4 of the kind of traditional urban neighbourhoods we take for granted, doesn't have overhead wires on their main streets like we do. All of the excuses I've read in this thread have been overcome by cities everywhere except our little corner of the world. We just need to be willing to pay for aesthetics.

The cost of electricity in those countries is many times higher than it is here.

The cost of electricity in Montreal and Vancouver is less than here yet both cities have more extensively buried hydro infrastructure. That's not to say that overhead power lines don't exist in those cities, but they're less common and less visually intrusive.

 

[ShonTron]

The cost of electricity in Montreal and Vancouver is less than here yet both cities have more extensively buried hydro infrastructure. That's not to say that overhead power lines don't exist in those cities, but they're less common and less visually intrusive.

Vancouver has most of its overhead utilities in alleys - the wooden structures in the dense pre-1930 city are ugly, but at least out of the way. Vancouver does have the double-wire trolley bus overhead which can clutter intersections where the trolley routes connect (with the big switch frogs), and some electrical wires follow these routes. I'm a fan of trolley buses, though, so I don't mind even if Broadway and Granville is a little cluttered overhead!

More importantly, both Quebec and BC did not go the route that the Harris government did and screw up their power generation and distribution systems. We're still paying for the break-up, partial deregulation and partial privatization of Ontario Hydro.

 

[Kat_YYZ]

we have to stop balking every time we hear that something costs money. Good infrastructure costs money; it will need more than 10 years to pay off. This is not some kind of travesty -- it's normal. Demand quality and be prepared to pay for it. Stop cheaping out on everything and taking "penny wise, pound foolish" shortcuts.

 

[Mulder]

It's simple blindness to fail to include the cost of unreliability in comparisons of the cost of underground electrical distribution versus the Toronto model. The costs of our system include:
system repair costs after ice storms (and the climate change forecast calls for more of these in the future)
ongoing tree pruning expenses
private losses from hydro failures, such as relocation costs, home damage from burst pipes, and loss of use of normal household functions
private losses from installing backup generators because the system is unreliable (I have one and it wasn't cheap)

For that matter, the power doesn't only go out when we have ice storms. Our neighbour's tree toppled spontaneously a couple of summers ago and it knocked out power to the entire side of their street.

Forget the esthetics of our frontier-town overhead wires, which are hideous enough. Surely we place some economic value on having a reliable electricity supply?

Unreliability? Suddenly the current model is unreliable because of one freak ice storm?
What if there is a frost heave that snaps some underground wires? (Does happen)
What if there is a flood that destroys thousands of underground transformers?
What about the esthetics? Who wants a consistent hum some people complain about when a transformer is buried near their front yard ?

The cost to repair any underground household service is anywhere between 5-10 times more than overhead.

Besides no one can predict when these types of ice storms will hit. So claiming these extra costs is blindness.

Don't get me wrong, there are pros and cons to both. But installing a backup generator was your choice, it's also not hydros fault you or your neighbour didn't call to inform them of overhanging limbs. (Which your supposed to do, which would remove any of those "private losses" you speak off.

But calling the current model unreliable ? It's no where near that. Which really invalidates your entire argument.

 

[BurlOak]

They ran out of cards in some locations, and the line-ups took forever.

http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/mobile/mo...d-to-people-in-need-after-ice-storm-1.1611408

So about 400,000 customers in Ontario lost power. Let's say 200,000 families. Multiply by $100 per family and that means they should have had $20M available to give out.

They only had $200k.

Are Liberals that bad at math (based on their fiscal record, the answer seems to be YES). You have to be some kind of stupid to only provide 1% of the funding required to satisfy the needs. This will go down as the worst public relations plan in quite some time. Wynne clearly wins the prize of most incompetant leader on this one.

 

[PinkLucy]

They said that they didn't anticipate the demand. D'oh. Did they truly think hardly any one would show up?

 

[W. K. Lis]

They said that they didn't anticipate the demand. D'oh. Did they truly think hardly any one would show up?

Those who complain are the ones who do not plan for problems, such as power outages, furnace breakdowns, or don't maintain their homes. Did have a power failure in my neighbourhood last year, but I we were able to still use our BBQ. Will be chipping in with my family members for a portable generator, so we can share it for future power failures. First, I plan to do some wiring, switches, and connections for a generator, come the summer.

I pruned my tree every year on my front lawn. Last year, I got a company to do the top branches. Not a single branch (big, small, or tiny) came down.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/mobile/mo...d-to-people-in-need-after-ice-storm-1.1611408

So about 400,000 customers in Ontario lost power. Let's say 200,000 families. Multiply by $100 per family and that means they should have had $20M available to give out.

They only had $200k.

Are Liberals that bad at math (based on their fiscal record, the answer seems to be YES). You have to be some kind of stupid to only provide 1% of the funding required to satisfy the needs. This will go down as the worst public relations plan in quite some time. Wynne clearly wins the prize of most incompetant leader on this one.

Why should every family get it if it is based on need? And if one going by fiscal interests alone, wouldn't it be best for the government not to spend money at all, and not what, give out $20M with the likelihood that the most significant chunk will be going to individuals who simply doesn't *need* it?

AoD

 

[PinkLucy]

Those who complain are the ones who do not plan for problems, such as power outages, furnace breakdowns, or don't maintain their homes. Did have a power failure in my neighbourhood last year, but I we were able to still use our BBQ. Will be chipping in with my family members for a portable generator, so we can share it for future power failures. First, I plan to do some wiring, switches, and connections for a generator, come the summer.

I pruned my tree every year on my front lawn. Last year, I got a company to do the top branches. Not a single branch (big, small, or tiny) came down.

That's a little harsh. Lots of people lived in apartments. There's only so much you can do.

 

[MisterF]

Vancouver has most of its overhead utilities in alleys - the wooden structures in the dense pre-1930 city are ugly, but at least out of the way. Vancouver does have the double-wire trolley bus overhead which can clutter intersections where the trolley routes connect (with the big switch frogs), and some electrical wires follow these routes. I'm a fan of trolley buses, though, so I don't mind even if Broadway and Granville is a little cluttered overhead!

More importantly, both Quebec and BC did not go the route that the Harris government did and screw up their power generation and distribution systems. We're still paying for the break-up, partial deregulation and partial privatization of Ontario Hydro.

I've heard that about the back alleys in Vancouver. If that's a cheaper way to remove the visual clutter, all the power to them. The important thing is that they're finding a way to make their streets look better. I did notice the trolley bus wires when I was there. They're done in the most unintrusive way possible. The overhead clutter is kept to a bare minimum and there are no wooden poles. Having trolley buses, or streetcars for that matter, means you're going to have some above ground wires but the rest of the utilities should be out of the way.

I have no idea if underground wires are more reliable than overhead in a storm, but IMO getting rid of them for aesthetics alone is well worth it.

 

[JWBF]

Those who complain are the ones who do not plan for problems, such as power outages, furnace breakdowns, or don't maintain their homes. Did have a power failure in my neighbourhood last year, but I we were able to still use our BBQ. Will be chipping in with my family members for a portable generator, so we can share it for future power failures. First, I plan to do some wiring, switches, and connections for a generator, come the summer.

I pruned my tree every year on my front lawn. Last year, I got a company to do the top branches. Not a single branch (big, small, or tiny) came down.

Bully for you. PinkLucy is right, what about apartment dwellers like myself, my wife, mother, aunt and uncle, etc.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Why should every family get it if it is based on need? And if one going by fiscal interests alone, wouldn't it be best for the government not to spend money at all, and not what, give out $20M with the likelihood that the most significant chunk will be going to individuals who simply doesn't *need* it?

AoD

Rob Ford's house was without electrical power for a few hours, not days. However, I wouldn't give him a $100 grocery card. Don't know if there's threshold or not.

 

[Kat_YYZ]

Some were given a ticket to come back on Thursday, while others, who were already on Ontario Works or Ontario Disability, were advised to contact their case worker for a credit to their existing account.

http://www.680news.com/2013/12/31/290-toronto-hydro-customers-still-without-power-after-storm/

they should have told people who are already registered on an assistance program to not come and line up in the first place! why make the line longer and use up the limited amount of physical gift cards for people who can just have their account credited automatically?

Sadly, I'm sure a lot of people who aren't truly in financial straits grabbed up a lot of those cards. I don't think you should have to be registered to a program to qualify, but it would be nice to have some way to verify who truly deserves the help and who is just being a douchewad.

 

[ChesterCopperpot]

They only had $200k.

Are Liberals that bad at math (based on their fiscal record, the answer seems to be YES). You have to be some kind of stupid to only provide 1% of the funding required to satisfy the needs. This will go down as the worst public relations plan in quite some time. Wynne clearly wins the prize of most incompetant leader on this one.

They only put up $100K of that - Loblaws, Sobeys, Metro and Shoppers put up the other half