Roark8
New Member
I don't think she can be called an Architect ?
"led the team.......against three other architect firms" - that's a bit conceited.
"led the team.......against three other architect firms" - that's a bit conceited.
Toronto Humbertown Redevelopment | ?m | 21s | First Capital | Kirkor Architects
- Thread starter SixPoints
- Start date
ProjectEnd
Superstar
Yes I do.
ooooookey!..please imagine for a second, that there are people with a bit more than half of architectural/urbanistic (sic!) brain that consider 60s as the darkest decade in the history of architecture .. at least within last century scale. This buulding is so out of proportion and any sense of aesthetics that calling it b*tt ugly is actually not fair to all hard working b*tt holes of this world.
Ladies and gentleman, last night's meeting of the HVVRA Tea Party in a post.
adma
Superstar
Really? They were offering *those* kinds of arguments?
Well, to quote myself yet again...
adma
Superstar
IOW they'd be glad if something like this
were remodelled into or replaced by something like this
were remodelled into or replaced by something like this
cogito ergo
Active Member
How to put it simply?
Bad examples of architecture, both of them!
Putting one against each other proves exactly nothing.
All it says is that Adma prefers Corbusierish starckness and other people like wedding cakes.
If today's mainstream opinions of the so called "expert" circles favor one over another, means also exactly nothing!
It is just a prevailing opinion characterizing our times. Nothing more. I can easily imagine that it would be ridiculed in the future.
Good design tends to hold its fort without a need of pompous condascending commentaries supporting its virtues.
Bad examples of architecture, both of them!
Putting one against each other proves exactly nothing.
All it says is that Adma prefers Corbusierish starckness and other people like wedding cakes.
If today's mainstream opinions of the so called "expert" circles favor one over another, means also exactly nothing!
It is just a prevailing opinion characterizing our times. Nothing more. I can easily imagine that it would be ridiculed in the future.
Good design tends to hold its fort without a need of pompous condascending commentaries supporting its virtues.
adma
Superstar
How to put it simply?
Bad examples of architecture, both of them!
Putting one against each other proves exactly nothing.
All it says is that Adma prefers Corbusierish starckness and other people like wedding cakes.
If today's mainstream opinions of the so called "expert" circles favor one over another, means also exactly nothing!
It is just a prevailing opinion characterizing our times. Nothing more. I can easily imagine that it would be ridiculed in the future.
Good design tends to hold its fort without a need of pompous condascending commentaries supporting its virtues.
Read this regarding the first building
It's the perfect reason why Sunday-painter "prevailing opinion"-mongerers like cogito ergo should be put in their place. (Esp. when they use spelling like "starckness" and "condascending".)
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cogito ergo
Active Member
Well, now I feel "put in my place" by the adma.... and the City Clerk!
Time will tell how "putting opinions in place" work.
I should simply throw away my own sense of aeshetics, my own knowledge bacause City Clerk (and adma) tells me so!
My own education with 2 degrees in the field, my experience shall be put to sleep, means exactly nothing!
Bigger heads are talking. Well done!
BTW, English is the third in sequence language I had to learn(and still learning). Please accept my sincere apologies therefore for all spelling errors or "inconvenient" use of words. saying that, I am not going to spend time checking for grammar and conjugation mistakes just to satisfy one-tongue people or purists, it is an open URBAN forum after all. Even my limited command of English tells me that I am not the only one making mistakes here.
Enough silly bickering!
I think this development looks promissing, needs some refinment of course (which could be expected as the Schematics progress to DD stage) and most of NIMBY's arguments are simply ridiculous.
Just my opinion.
Time will tell how "putting opinions in place" work.
I should simply throw away my own sense of aeshetics, my own knowledge bacause City Clerk (and adma) tells me so!
My own education with 2 degrees in the field, my experience shall be put to sleep, means exactly nothing!
Bigger heads are talking. Well done!
BTW, English is the third in sequence language I had to learn(and still learning). Please accept my sincere apologies therefore for all spelling errors or "inconvenient" use of words. saying that, I am not going to spend time checking for grammar and conjugation mistakes just to satisfy one-tongue people or purists, it is an open URBAN forum after all. Even my limited command of English tells me that I am not the only one making mistakes here.
Enough silly bickering!
I think this development looks promissing, needs some refinment of course (which could be expected as the Schematics progress to DD stage) and most of NIMBY's arguments are simply ridiculous.
Just my opinion.
urbandreamer
recession proof
Humbertown could be remade in the image of the English Village I think. Think of the large homes around it as the landed gentry with the tenants in their apartments on one side and the villagers in their comfortable dwellings. NimbyTect massing study to scale although not quite following the exact street grid--close, just slighty off angle. Tallest building is 12s. Average height 5-6s stepping down to 3.5s on the southern edge. Where it says "Humble Squared" is a landscaped greenspace/park serving as a buffer between the established SFH to the south/west which eliminates the awkward jog in Lambeth Road. The density is actually greater than the existing proposal but the massing is evenly distributed. Same amount of CRU as existing proposal with a combination of a central square/surface parking and underground parking. More to come.
On the right track or going off the rails?
On the right track or going off the rails?
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adma
Superstar
Passed through the nabe this morning, and it's utterly wall to wall w/"Save Humbertown" signs.
And, really, the big problem is the degree to which this is all unfolding as a NIMBY argument, i.e. w/little or nothing of the Queen/Gladstone YIMBY spirit, or even the step-by-step constructive-in-spite-of-itself way in which the Don Mills Centre scheme unfolded. It's like the neighbourhood's on Mars, the developers are on Venus--strict, non-constructive oppositional forces. And compared w/the way Don Mills unfolded, it's a paradoxically ahistorical kind of "save" campaign, i.e. the scare tactics are more about real estate values and "lifestyle" issues--the self-serving stuff of "taxpayers" rather than "citizens"--to the point where one really has to squint for any cognizance of the history and heritage of Humbertown/Humber Valley Village. Such is how it all unfolds in the self-serving Fordian narcissism of Etobicoke, I suppose...
And, really, the big problem is the degree to which this is all unfolding as a NIMBY argument, i.e. w/little or nothing of the Queen/Gladstone YIMBY spirit, or even the step-by-step constructive-in-spite-of-itself way in which the Don Mills Centre scheme unfolded. It's like the neighbourhood's on Mars, the developers are on Venus--strict, non-constructive oppositional forces. And compared w/the way Don Mills unfolded, it's a paradoxically ahistorical kind of "save" campaign, i.e. the scare tactics are more about real estate values and "lifestyle" issues--the self-serving stuff of "taxpayers" rather than "citizens"--to the point where one really has to squint for any cognizance of the history and heritage of Humbertown/Humber Valley Village. Such is how it all unfolds in the self-serving Fordian narcissism of Etobicoke, I suppose...
blahblahblah
Active Member
I live in the neighbourhood and am all for this development. The only argument I see marshalled against the development is some vague traffic one or just a "we don't need this here" one. I had a brain storm this morning for the developers which is to tout the LCBO more. Show the many wine lovers(snobs) in the neighbourhood specific bottles they will be able to buy in their new enlarged store and they will see there is something in it for them. Sure to bring a good percentage right over.
adma
Superstar
And somehow, such "baiting" methods sound inappropriately cynical. As wrongheaded as NIMBY arguments have been, this still shouldn't be about "sticking it to the NIMBYS".
Look: I've done my NIMBY-knocking in this thread. However, without laying blame on either side, this is still a case where more dialogue could've been struck in order to fine-tune things and mitigate the "shock factor" of a redevelopment scheme. Such as which existed at Don Mills and West Queen West--yeah, in the latter case, 48 Abell still fell and Bohemian Embarrassment still came to pass; but still, the end result is far from a black eye on the neighbourhood except to the hardcore Drake-you-ho-this-is-all-your-fault crowd.
In order to enable such dialogue, there needs to be a note of well-rounded, non-reactionary civic literacy in place--something that would prevent the locals from being their own worst enemies. It's through such dialogue that you can arrive at the best scheme possible; because through it encourages the best in people, rather than fueling the worst in people. And you can't achieve such civic literacy when it all boils down to raw status-quo clinginess or the crudest obsession with "property values".
Somewhere in here, a true genius loci is struggling to get out.
urbandreamer
recession proof
Here's another view of my Humble Squared proposal. The red (brick) is the square that also functions as surface parking in a screwball European style... Note how the wider strip angles off to provide a view of that attractive St Giles church. The black pavement is the Kingsway & the central wide road, both which feature on street parking. Hell, the surrounding streets could have on street parking if need be. Btw, anyone notice how Humbertown in plan looks like a traditional Protestant church? Perhaps intentional? Which is how I've structured the development--the lower third is dense with the congregation; the middle has higher structures (altar etc) while the top is for the gods. I am leaning towards a concrete parking & retail podium with either wood or steel frame construction for the majority of the residential with the exception of the obvious towers which would be concrete. This technique has been approved in BC and is said to be up to 30-40% cheaper to construct. In a slow market this would allow for economical staging of phases. While the smaller structures look separate they are in fact large masses broken down into into varying facades--a NimbyTect trademark. Note the separation between buildings on the upper right--mimicking the 5s lowrise walkup apts across the street. Another NimbyTect trademark--fitting in with the nimbies while attempting to be the hottie next door.
Now back to the boards for a bit of detail (& perhaps simplification for mass production.)
Note how the wider strip angles off to provide a view of that attractive St Giles church. The black pavement is the Kingsway & the central wide road, both which feature on street parking. Hell, the surrounding streets could have on street parking if need be. Btw, anyone notice how Humbertown in plan looks like a traditional Protestant church? Perhaps intentional? Which is how I've structured the development--the lower third is dense with the congregation; the middle has higher structures (altar etc) while the top is for the gods. I am leaning towards a concrete parking & retail podium with either wood or steel frame construction for the majority of the residential with the exception of the obvious towers which would be concrete. This technique has been approved in BC and is said to be up to 30-40% cheaper to construct. In a slow market this would allow for economical staging of phases. While the smaller structures look separate they are in fact large masses broken down into into varying facades--a NimbyTect trademark. Note the separation between buildings on the upper right--mimicking the 5s lowrise walkup apts across the street. Another NimbyTect trademark--fitting in with the nimbies while attempting to be the hottie next door.
Now back to the boards for a bit of detail (& perhaps simplification for mass production.
)
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jje1000
Senior Member
Are you channelling BIG Architect's Superkilen Square?
When you're doing your renders, just remember to fill it with the middle-aged and older folks instead of hipsters.
When you're doing your renders, just remember to fill it with the middle-aged and older folks instead of hipsters.
urbandreamer
recession proof
I think of all ages. Note these are simple sketchup renders so you won't notice the finer details. The red brick would be toned down & likely no different than that found in many parts of Toronto's streetscapes. Although I like to look at what others are doing it's a distraction--it is easy to be accused of plagiarism so no, I wasn't channeling that BIG project (not certain I'd seen it before.) I admire the work of Alison Brooks, H5 out of Winnipeg amongst others. I am really referencing the classic small village--both inspired by my childhood amongst Ontario's small towns & the English (or European) village. At the heart of any community is a village. From Williamsburg to Manhattan to Yorkville or Bloor West Village, Humbertown should be a reflection of the locals' needs. That doesn't mean Disneyland nor those faux Blue Mountainesque ski towns. A real, modern human scaled community.
But thanks for the response--any criticism or feedback is greatly appreciated.
But thanks for the response--any criticism or feedback is greatly appreciated.
RC8
Senior Member
So what if it's heritage designated?
It's a historically important piece of art that should be preserved and even restored, but that doesn't make it a nice-looking desirable or even functional building.
In my opinion it fails to accomplish what it set out to do. Instead of achieving elegance through its simplicity it just comes across as oppressive and darkens the mood of the intersection it sits on. It doesn't acknowledge people as successfully as most pre-war buildings managed to, and that strikes me as nothing but a set-back and a failure of architecture. Many other buildings from that era were guilty, usually to much much greater extents, of neglecting people and their interaction with the built environment.
The Benvenuto Apartments on the other hand, are a timeless masterpiece that should be praised as both an important piece of our heritage, and a successful desirable and functional design:
