Markham GTA Centre | ?m | ?s | GTA S. and E. | BBB

[alklay]

Ah, the truth is coming out. Look, if this was a viable business venture, it would be done with private money and would not require funding from the taxpayers. There is little doubt that this will be a financial burden on the city. I suspect that Markham taxpayers are going to be very sorry in a few years.

 

[RPM]

Ah, the truth is coming out. Look, if this was a viable business venture, it would be done with private money and would not require funding from the taxpayers. There is little doubt that this will be a financial burden on the city. I suspect that Markham taxpayers are going to be very sorry in a few years.

are you kidding ? lol.... there are maybe a handful of arenas / stadiums in north america that have been privately funded.. They all are taxpayer funded.

The only thing this tells me is that they must have a private deal from the NHL about a future team.

 

[canarob]

I wonder what influence MLSE is having on people it works with (e.g., Live Nation) making these comments? I think this has far more to do with limiting competition for the ACC.

Why would they need 200 events a year to be profitable? How many arenas are actually that busy? Surely it could break even with the projected 130 concerts a year. Given the ACC is one of the busiest arenas in the world, I think the worst-case scenario would be a few rough years before profitability since the GTA Centre could undercut the ACC on pricing.

 

[Thanos]

Ah, the truth is coming out. Look, if this was a viable business venture, it would be done with private money and would not require funding from the taxpayers.

As opposed to? You do realise that majority of arenas/stadiums ever built have had some sort of government backing.

I wonder what influence MLSE is having on people it works with (e.g., Live Nation) making these comments? I think this has far more to do with limiting competition for the ACC.

Why would they need 200 events a year to be profitable? How many arenas are actually that busy? Surely it could break even with the projected 130 concerts a year. Given the ACC is one of the busiest arenas in the world, I think the worst-case scenario would be a few rough years before profitability since the GTA Centre could undercut the ACC on pricing.

Exactly. I wouldn't be surprised if MLSE plays an important role in this arenas demise.

 

[TOareaFan]

I wonder what influence MLSE is having on people it works with (e.g., Live Nation) making these comments? I think this has far more to do with limiting competition for the ACC.

Why would they need 200 events a year to be profitable? How many arenas are actually that busy? Surely it could break even with the projected 130 concerts a year. Given the ACC is one of the busiest arenas in the world, I think the worst-case scenario would be a few rough years before profitability since the GTA Centre could undercut the ACC on pricing.

Aside from the fact that the real issue is that for events like concerts the arena only gets a very small portion of the revenue (ie. they essentially rent out their building for the night to a promoter).....can someone tell me where these 130 concerts a year are going to come from? That story says that the ACC has over 200 event nights.....about half being the more profitable "we own the team so we keep all of the revenue" Raptors/Leafs type of events...so, they have, lets say, 100 or so concerts.

Is the "business plan" of this arena that they will take all of the concerts out of the ACC and create 30 more events?" or is it "there are 130 concerts/events that bypass Toronto every year because the ACC {plus SkyDome, Ricoh, other arenas, other concert halls} can't accomodate them"?

Whichever one of those it is....they are both headshakingly implausible.

BTW...without giving it too much thought, I can think of 4 NHL sized arenas in Canada that were built with private money....there may be more but I can get to 4 without google.

 

[canarob]

Aside from the fact that the real issue is that for events like concerts the arena only gets a very small portion of the revenue (ie. they essentially rent out their building for the night to a promoter).....can someone tell me where these 130 concerts a year are going to come from? That story says that the ACC has over 200 event nights.....about half being the more profitable "we own the team so we keep all of the revenue" Raptors/Leafs type of events...so, they have, lets say, 100 or so concerts.

Is the "business plan" of this arena that they will take all of the concerts out of the ACC and create 30 more events?" or is it "there are 130 concerts/events that bypass Toronto every year because the ACC {plus SkyDome, Ricoh, other arenas, other concert halls} can't accomodate them"?

Whichever one of those it is....they are both headshakingly implausible.

BTW...without giving it too much thought, I can think of 4 NHL sized arenas in Canada that were built with private money....there may be more but I can get to 4 without google.

In addition to concerts that will be held at the GTA centre instead of the ACC because of the ability to play more nights, I'm sure in a growing region of almost 6 million there are "net new" events created every year. There must have been far more events of this size in 2011 than 2001, 1991, etc. It's not just concerts -- think of the larger Cirque shows that tour arenas, UFC events, wrestling, etc.

 

[alklay]

BTW, the ACC was built with private money.

Where is the independent report that this is feasible? Why didn't the town insist on conducting and obtaining reports that were not paid by those seeking taxpayer funds, before they approved this plan?

 

[canarob]

BTW, the ACC was built with private money.

Where is the independent report that this is feasible? Why didn't the town insist on conducting and obtaining reports that were not paid by those seeking taxpayer funds, before they approved this plan?

The (at the time) town did have its own consultants researching this. I haven't seen anything released to the public though.

 

[RPM]

BTW, the ACC was built with private money.

Where is the independent report that this is feasible? Why didn't the town insist on conducting and obtaining reports that were not paid by those seeking taxpayer funds, before they approved this plan?

ACC is one of the rare exceptions... all the rest have public funding... end of story

 

[TOareaFan]

In addition to concerts that will be held at the GTA centre instead of the ACC because of the ability to play more nights, I'm sure in a growing region of almost 6 million there are "net new" events created every year. There must have been far more events of this size in 2011 than 2001, 1991, etc. It's not just concerts -- think of the larger Cirque shows that tour arenas, UFC events, wrestling, etc.

I am sure the business grows.....but, if I were puting my money into this...I would have asked by now "can you explain to us what those 130 events might entail."

I wish Markham well (as I have said before, I like venues and I particulalry like that my tax dollars are not involved in this one) but there simply are not 130 event nights per year (or anything close to that number) that are bypassing Toronto because there is no available arena/stadium in town....even if they were, they would not generate enough profit for the arena operator to service this amount of debt.

What should make the taxpayer in Markham raise a Spokian eyebrow is that the person questioning the model is a concert promoter....these are the guys who make the most money in the concert business....and these are the guys that would, generally, encourage municipalities to spend money building venues so that the competition between venues increases, the rent for venues deacreases and the profit for promoters increases....yet they are questioning where the events will come from!

 

[TOareaFan]

ACC is one of the rare exceptions... all the rest (except the arena in Ottawa the one in Montreal and the one in Vancouver) have public funding... end of story

FYP.

Like I said earlier, google may uncover others but there are at least 4 NHL sized arenas in Canada built with private money. The one in Ottawa did not even have the benefit of public money for supporting infrastructure....the original owners of the Senators had to build highway interchanges to service the arena.

 

[RPM]

I am sure the business grows.....but, if I were puting my money into this...I would have asked by now "can you explain to us what those 130 events might entail."

I wish Markham well (as I have said before, I like venues and I particulalry like that my tax dollars are not involved in this one) but there simply are not 130 event nights per year (or anything close to that number) that are bypassing Toronto because there is no available arena/stadium in town....even if they were, they would not generate enough profit for the arena operator to service this amount of debt.

What should make the taxpayer in Markham raise a Spokian eyebrow is that the person questioning the model is a concert promoter....these are the guys who make the most money in the concert business....and these are the guys that would, generally, encourage municipalities to spend money building venues so that the competition between venues increases, the rent for venues deacreases and the profit for promoters increases....yet they are questioning where the events will come from!

you figure with just the Leafs, Raptors and Rock... that's ~100 dates wiped out from just Oct - May (more if God forbid any of them can make the playoffs, or a long run)... so during the winter i'd bet there is quite a bit of business that could be had because the ACC is already booked.

 

[TOareaFan]

you figure with just the Leafs, Raptors and Rock... that's ~100 dates wiped out from just Oct - May (more if God forbid any of them can make the playoffs, or a long run)... so during the winter i'd bet there is quite a bit of business that could be had because the ACC is already booked.

I have no doubt there are a few.....but 130? that is the number that is, as I said before, "headshakingly implausible"

Even wiping out 100 nights between October 1 and May 31.....there are, what, 140 other nights for events....yet the ACC still has "dead" nights throughout those months. Not to mention the other potential venues.

 

[RPM]

I have no doubt there are a few.....but 130? that is the number that is, as I said before, "headshakingly implausible"

well let's face it, rumours are of a secret deal with the NHL. Markham is smart enough not to shoot their mouthes off like Balsillie and QC did. even QC has shut their mouthes in the last few months... this is how the NHL does business, quietly behind the scenes, you play ball and tow the line and you are in... just ask Winnipeg.

 

[Dan416]

well let's face it, rumours are of a secret deal with the NHL. Markham is smart enough not to shoot their mouthes off like Balsillie and QC did. even QC has shut their mouthes in the last few months... this is how the NHL does business, quietly behind the scenes, you play ball and tow the line and you are in... just ask Winnipeg.

That may be true, but why the questions now from one of the "partners" in this whole deal?