Markham GTA Centre | ?m | ?s | GTA S. and E. | BBB

[Jonny5]

I think it would make a small, but noticeable difference on traffic to push it back an hour. However I wouldn't like it as a fan attending the game. An 8:00 start could take the game all the way to 11:00. Too late for me. I don't know about TV contracts, but the 7:00 start time allows for the game to finish just in time for the west coast game to start.

 

[TOareaFan]

I think it would make a small, but noticeable difference on traffic to push it back an hour. However I wouldn't like it as a fan attending the game. An 8:00 start could take the game all the way to 11:00. Too late for me. I don't know about TV contracts, but the 7:00 start time allows for the game to finish just in time for the west coast game to start.

And that is why they like/want/demand the early start in the east......they get to broadcast both games in full.

 

[TOareaFan]

The star has been reporting on this a bit

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/1268271--markham-s-power-play-the-nhl-question


http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/art...ajor-arena-with-no-pro-sports-team-make-sense

 

[alklay]

So everybody but the vested interests are saying this this is not viable (even the consulting firm that the developers are using). And its still being built? Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa?!

 

[canarob]

To be fair, Global Spectrum only said they would need an AHL, OHL, etc. team at minimum. Getting a minor league hockey team can't be that difficult.

Just because Hamilton didn't make a go of it, doesn't mean Markham can't. There may be sound reasons why this won't work in Markham, but in terms of location and demographics, Hamilton is a very different place. If we ARE talking about the NHL, it's too close to Buffalo. If we aren't talking about the NHL, it's still not as central, isn't growing as fast, has lower disposable incomes, etc. The GTA Centre should be considered on its own merits (or lack thereof).

I also don't see how an arena couldn't help with city building? Even if it's barely breaking even, it would bring thousands of people to the area. The argument that an arena adds nothing to a community seems ludicrous to me, especially in a case where a downtown is being built from scratch. Is there even anything else in North America to compare this to (other completely new downtowns that have built an arena)?

 

[canarob]

Proponents of the Markham project point to Kansas City’s 5-year-old Sprint Centre, one of the busiest in the U.S, as an example of a public arena operating well without a major tenant.

However, the Sprint Centre is the dominant venue in its region.

Also, this is misleading given the GTA has 5.5+ million people and the Kansas City metro is only 2 million. The GTA centre would arguably be the "dominant venue" of a larger population (York, Durham, and Simcoe alone are 2 million, plus northern and eastern Scarborough, people living along the 407 to the west, etc.)

 

[TOareaFan]

Also, this is misleading given the GTA has 5.5+ million people and the Kansas City metro is only 2 million. The GTA centre would arguably be the "dominant venue" of a larger population (York, Durham, and Simcoe alone are 2 million, plus northern and eastern Scarborough, people living along the 407 to the west, etc.)

I think the point is that the Sprint Centre is the only real indoor arena option for things like concert tours. After a certain point it does not really matter how big your population is.....there is only one Bon Jovi (to use an example) tour. So, in KC when BJ go on tour in, say, November they stop at the Sprint Centre.....if the GTA Centre gets built, they will be competing for that one BJ concert with the ACC and (to some extent) the Rogers Centre. A bigger population does not magically create "more events" to divvy up and, therefore, a better chance of success for a secondary arena.

If I were a taxpayer in Markham I would really be looking at the latest reports about this and seeing some cracks in the business plan.....

the "We will have 130 non hockey events" line has been replaced with "We have identified 131 events a year at this time that we are very comfortable with,” ....without any mention if those events are new, net events, or just the same events that are currently being staged at ACC/Rogers/Ricoh/Hershey/GM Place.

It would scare me, a lot, how many times they are mentioning the National Basketball League of Canada....a fledgling league that plays a very short scheduled in front of hundreds of fans per game.

Walking and running clubs? Wow, that really sounds like something worth hundreds of millions of tax dollars!

I get, Canrob, that you are a proud Markhamite and that you think an arena is good for your town/city.......but that is a lot of taxpayer (even they are not the current taxpayers) money being staked on what appears to be a very flimsy plan (and, more and more, seems like it really is just a new version of "build and they will come" with the "they" being the NHL).

 

[Memph]

Although this arena might bring benefits, you would think that for the kind of money the arena costs, Markham should be able to find another project that will be more beneficial.

 

[taal]

I think the point is that the Sprint Centre is the only real indoor arena option for things like concert tours. After a certain point it does not really matter how big your population is.....there is only one Bon Jovi (to use an example) tour. So, in KC when BJ go on tour in, say, November they stop at the Sprint Centre.....if the GTA Centre gets built, they will be competing for that one BJ concert with the ACC and (to some extent) the Rogers Centre. A bigger population does not magically create "more events" to divvy up and, therefore, a better chance of success for a secondary arena.

If I were a taxpayer in Markham I would really be looking at the latest reports about this and seeing some cracks in the business plan.....

the "We will have 130 non hockey events" line has been replaced with "We have identified 131 events a year at this time that we are very comfortable with,†....without any mention if those events are new, net events, or just the same events that are currently being staged at ACC/Rogers/Ricoh/Hershey/GM Place.

It would scare me, a lot, how many times they are mentioning the National Basketball League of Canada....a fledgling league that plays a very short scheduled in front of hundreds of fans per game.

Walking and running clubs? Wow, that really sounds like something worth hundreds of millions of tax dollars!

I get, Canrob, that you are a proud Markhamite and that you think an arena is good for your town/city.......but that is a lot of taxpayer (even they are not the current taxpayers) money being staked on what appears to be a very flimsy plan (and, more and more, seems like it really is just a new version of "build and they will come" with the "they" being the NHL).

Well he was also alluding to the fact that this should help establish downtown Markham ... and argument which seems reasonable ... it would draw more non-locals to the areas, creating more business for the nearby restaurants and the like.

I think there are a couple flaws with that idea, at least in the near term ... while it's been stated there are "good" transit options to this arena that isn't really the case for several reason ... by far and away the most important is the following:
No matter how much "transit" is provided, when folks plan to go to a venue in the suburbs many will desire to take their car period, regardless of the options ... there's a different mindset downtown, this will take years and years to change. I'm glad to see they amount of parking they are adding has now been increased to around 7K, because honestly I can't see this being very feasible otherwise.

But looking at the plan, a lot of the parking is quite far away, I think that may be the biggest hurdle, folks won't want to attend concerts here because they'll want to drive and parking will be a huge pain. Moreover, to get from the parking to "downtown markham" (i.e. the shops present), may not be that easy by car at first.


I think when more of the downtown Markham plan is flushed out (i.e. 10/20 years from now) it'll be more viable, but even then, changing the attitudes those in the suburbs have toward transit will take longer ... I think this is the biggest sticking point many people simply right off "oh there's a go train" ... sure, but how many people will want to use it ... that'll be the most difficult challenge to overcome in the short / medium term.

 

[canarob]

I think the point is that the Sprint Centre is the only real indoor arena option for things like concert tours. After a certain point it does not really matter how big your population is.....there is only one Bon Jovi (to use an example) tour. So, in KC when BJ go on tour in, say, November they stop at the Sprint Centre.....if the GTA Centre gets built, they will be competing for that one BJ concert with the ACC and (to some extent) the Rogers Centre. A bigger population does not magically create "more events" to divvy up and, therefore, a better chance of success for a secondary arena.

If I were a taxpayer in Markham I would really be looking at the latest reports about this and seeing some cracks in the business plan.....

the "We will have 130 non hockey events" line has been replaced with "We have identified 131 events a year at this time that we are very comfortable with,†....without any mention if those events are new, net events, or just the same events that are currently being staged at ACC/Rogers/Ricoh/Hershey/GM Place.

The size of a market does matter, which is why some concerts stay multiple nights in Toronto but not other cities. It's not a magical process as you said, but if the ACC is very booked over the winter, the GTA centre becomes a good alternative for the Bon Jovis of the world. Even if it's not "net new," so what? I don't see this arena driving others out of business. I just don't see how a region that's growing by 80-100k people a year (mostly in the 905) couldn't attract longer stays and more events? Am I 100% confident that the GTA Centre will work? No, but I also don't think Kansas City, Hamilton, Quebec City or Ottawa are good comparisons -- we are simply several times larger as a region.

It would scare me, a lot, how many times they are mentioning the National Basketball League of Canada....a fledgling league that plays a very short scheduled in front of hundreds of fans per game.

Walking and running clubs? Wow, that really sounds like something worth hundreds of millions of tax dollars!

I agree that this is not realistic and admit that if this goes forward, the first few years might be rough.

I get, Canrob, that you are a proud Markhamite and that you think an arena is good for your town/city.......but that is a lot of taxpayer (even they are not the current taxpayers) money being staked on what appears to be a very flimsy plan (and, more and more, seems like it really is just a new version of "build and they will come" with the "they" being the NHL).

I will admit to having more reservations about this now than I did previously. I just wish I could see the consultant's reports prepared for the city and what the terms of the lease agreement will be. I still think the overall model -- of paying for it through new development charges and fees-- is sound though. People also have the option of moving to another community in the GTA.

Well he was also alluding to the fact that this should help establish downtown Markham ... and argument which seems reasonable ... it would draw more non-locals to the areas, creating more business for the nearby restaurants and the like.

I think there are a couple flaws with that idea, at least in the near term ... while it's been stated there are "good" transit options to this arena that isn't really the case for several reason ... by far and away the most important is the following:
No matter how much "transit" is provided, when folks plan to go to a venue in the suburbs many will desire to take their car period, regardless of the options ... there's a different mindset downtown, this will take years and years to change. I'm glad to see they amount of parking they are adding has now been increased to around 7K, because honestly I can't see this being very feasible otherwise.

But looking at the plan, a lot of the parking is quite far away, I think that may be the biggest hurdle, folks won't want to attend concerts here because they'll want to drive and parking will be a huge pain. Moreover, to get from the parking to "downtown markham" (i.e. the shops present), may not be that easy by car at first.


I think when more of the downtown Markham plan is flushed out (i.e. 10/20 years from now) it'll be more viable, but even then, changing the attitudes those in the suburbs have toward transit will take longer ... I think this is the biggest sticking point many people simply right off "oh there's a go train" ... sure, but how many people will want to use it ... that'll be the most difficult challenge to overcome in the short / medium term.

I would hope that parking being difficult would lead more to taking transit, but even if people drive, the restaurants and shops will be adjacent to the arena, so there will be some benefits. Also, I don't know why someone that lived downtown or near Kennedy station wouldn't take the train over driving?

I think if people are willing to drive into downtown Toronto in rush hour and park for events at the ACC, parking in Markham won't be any more of a hassle given the walking distance will be comparable. And people will adapt by leaving earlier to get a good spot, etc.

 

[taal]

I would hope that parking being difficult would lead more to taking transit, but even if people drive, the restaurants and shops will be adjacent to the arena, so there will be some benefits. Also, I don't know why someone that lived downtown or near Kennedy station wouldn't take the train over driving?

I think if people are willing to drive into downtown Toronto in rush hour and park for events at the ACC, parking in Markham won't be any more of a hassle given the walking distance will be comparable. And people will adapt by leaving earlier to get a good spot, etc.

I honestly think parking will be a make it or break it factor much more so then people are giving it credit.

First lets be honest, its still not easy to get to this location through GO, unless you live downtown or in various parts of Scarborough / other parts of Markham, where the unionville go line is easily accessible ... secondly, I still don't think you'll see many suburbanites jumping on Viva (even though that's the other way of getting to hear from many other locations in the 905).

 

[TOareaFan]

I honestly think parking will be a make it or break it factor much more so then people are giving it credit.

First lets be honest, its still not easy to get to this location through GO, unless you live downtown or in various parts of Scarborough / other parts of Markham, where the unionville go line is easily accessible ... secondly, I still don't think you'll see many suburbanites jumping on Viva (even though that's the other way of getting to hear from many other locations in the 905).

I think you also have to add in (for at least mid-week events) that where people are coming to the events from may not be where they are headed back to after the event.

A quick look at the roads around the GTA during the morning and evening rush hours indicates that lots of people do not work where they live.

Is that downtown resident who is part of the reverse commute that clogs the westbound gardiner in the morning going to go back to the downtown after work just so they can take some transit (that currently does not exist but lets assume it will) to and from the event in Markham?

Are the residents of Peel and Halton who jam the roads in into the city from the west going to go home before heading to Markham?

More likely, people will drive to the event at the end of the work day and then drive home after the event.

There may be two very different travel patterns for this venue when you compare weekends and weekdays.....even if transit exists.

 

[canarob]

I honestly think parking will be a make it or break it factor much more so then people are giving it credit.

First lets be honest, its still not easy to get to this location through GO, unless you live downtown or in various parts of Scarborough / other parts of Markham, where the unionville go line is easily accessible ... secondly, I still don't think you'll see many suburbanites jumping on Viva (even though that's the other way of getting to hear from many other locations in the 905).

Well, given it's accessible by two TTC stations, it's as easy to access via GO as any other GO station except for Union.

There will also be express buses from Don Mills and the VCC Subway Station that will take the 407, not to mention existing 407 GO Bus Service.

I agree that VIVA will be a tougher sell, which is why express event service was created. For those that live in most of southern york region, VIVA will still be a good option though. I would certainly take it.

 

[taal]

Well, given it's accessible by two TTC stations, it's as easy to access via GO as any other GO station except for Union.

There will also be express buses from Don Mills and the VCC Subway Station that will take the 407, not to mention existing 407 GO Bus Service.

I agree that VIVA will be a tougher sell, which is why express event service was created. For those that live in most of southern york region, VIVA will still be a good option though. I would certainly take it.

But the point is any go train line goes straight to Union, so in fact its very difficult to access from the western GTA through go, one would need to find a quick way to get to VCC from the west.

My argument was more along the lines of are people going to be willing to do this period regardless of the available traffic.

The interesting thing is I find driving downtown, if you know the streets, very easy, many times of the day most streets are less crowded then suburban 416 ... and even more so when compared to some 905 streets which can be a mess.

i.e. its easy to drive downtown in many ways, if not easier then driving to other 905 locations, but a mentality exists that not many drive downtown regardless, you won't get that with this new arena.

Anyway all I'm saying is they really should plan to have 7K+ of parking right be side the facility, which isn't the way its being planed today at all, they are including parking that's pretty far away ! Making walking a big pain. All of this will hurt.

They should include more direct parking for the intern ! Building a parking garage !

 

[taal]

I think you also have to add in (for at least mid-week events) that where people are coming to the events from may not be where they are headed back to after the event.

A quick look at the roads around the GTA during the morning and evening rush hours indicates that lots of people do not work where they live.

Is that downtown resident who is part of the reverse commute that clogs the westbound gardiner in the morning going to go back to the downtown after work just so they can take some transit (that currently does not exist but lets assume it will) to and from the event in Markham?

Are the residents of Peel and Halton who jam the roads in into the city from the west going to go home before heading to Markham?

More likely, people will drive to the event at the end of the work day and then drive home after the event.

There may be two very different travel patterns for this venue when you compare weekends and weekdays.....even if transit exists.

The problem with this is they may take transit downtown, and would be willing to take a go-train from union to the venue, but not so willing to commute from there, as that aspect of the commute will likely be painful !