Toronto Eaton Centre (Ongoing Renewal) | ?m | ?s | Cadillac Fairview | Zeidler

condovo said:
Just a side note, Dolce & Gabbana (moving to Yorkdale), Hakim Optical (non-payment of rent) and H&M (low sales) have all closed or about to close on Bloor Street. Covid + inflation have changed shopping habits, probably for good.
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Definitely. A few years ago, I didn't own a single pair of running shoes and I wouldn't have been caught dead in public wearing a t-shirt, and now I couldn't be bothered with dress clothes.
 
rdaner said:
Could they build a tower on that side?
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Structurally? Without demolishing that section entirely, I'm not sure; I'd have to go back and look at the original masterplan and what was prepped for..........

In terms of footprint, there is definitely room for a residential/hotel floorplate; I think a commercial tower could be squeeze in as well, but it would be tight, given today's demand for larger, open, floorplates.

AlvinofDiaspar said:
Extend the galleria and turn it into a true extension of the mall. The whole notion of a large (even if very much shrunk down) anchor is a little quaint. It might even help to make the mall exciting again if they do it right.

AoD
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While this option appeals to me in some respects; there's a lot of commercial rent from BMO flowing; so I don't see that happening.
 
Northern Light said:
The death of retail has been greatly exaggerated.

That's not to suggest there has not been and will not continue to be change.

That's always been a thing though. The five-and-dime stores, Kresge and Woolworth morphed into K-Mart and Woolco (the former selling its Canadian division to HBC/Zellers, the latter being bought out by Walmart when it came to Canada); yet; the concept made a form of a return with 'Dollar stores', as department stores began to wane.

Everything old is new again.

I think we can certainly concede that online shopping is up; particularly for predictable goods you don't need to try on or see in person. That could be the book you know you want or more of the same socks you like.

Beyond that, high inflation (and mortgage servicing costs and rents) have left some people more squeezed, which strikes at the upper-middle and luxury segments a bit more than consumer staples.

However, we also need to note, that the speculation in various articles is that Nordstrom didn't turn an overall profit in Canada in a single quarter from the time it arrived. That was a problem before the pandemic or any recent issues. Indeed, government supports may have delayed some tough choices.

Sometime the problem isn't the market per se but the retailer.

Also, we need to add the luxury department store market is over-saturated everywhere. Far too many Sak's opened (in the U.S. too); far too many Nordstrom's, far too many other luxury brands were over extended. Cheap capital made the decision to grow easy, but expensive capital means the need to retrench.
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I didn't say retail is dead. I said shopping habits have changed, probably for good, hastened by Covid and inflation.

So, Dolce & Gabbana has decided that Yorkdale offers something better than Bloor; Hakim Optical (closed at Bay/Bloor) has competition now from Warby Parker, Ollie Quinn, Bailey Nelson, BonLook, etc.; H&M (closed at Bloor/Yonge) is getting hammered by Uniqlo; and all traditional retail is feeling the heat from online shopping.

These are calculations CF is going to have to make as it moves forward with filling Nordstrom's vacated space. Given the fast-evolving retail landscape, should they just extend the mall with more individual stores as they did with Eaton's/Sears former lower levels? Should they create a higher-end food experience, like individual restaurants or a Time Out Toronto? Should they offer Apple and/or Simons a big flagship space? (The new Apple Store is still too crowded.) A combination of these?
 
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Northern Light said:
R-I speculates and I concur; that Maison Simons is about to be having a close look at some newly available real estate.
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That was my first thought. Unlike others, Simons has been slow and steady with their expansion.

That said, I think the days of malls needing an anchor are gone. Convert it all to smaller units as was done with the lower floor, and extend the upper floors to meet with the rest of the mall.
 
zang said:
That was my first thought. Unlike others, Simons has been slow and steady with their expansion.

That said, I think the days of malls needing an anchor are gone. Convert it all to smaller units as was done with the lower floor, and extend the upper floors to meet with the rest of the mall.
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It is always good to have a destination store in the mall though. Anchors are a thing of the past I agree but having one massive department store with all the latest wares and so forth brings people in.

The only downside to that space is how small it is compared to when Eaton's was there. They have lopped off a few floors from the top for commercial space.
 
Northern Light said:
Structurally? Without demolishing that section entirely, I'm not sure; I'd have to go back and look at the original masterplan and what was prepped for..........

In terms of footprint, there is definitely room for a residential/hotel floorplate; I think a commercial tower could be squeeze in as well, but it would be tight, given today's demand for larger, open, floorplates.



While this option appeals to me in some respects; there's a lot of commercial rent from BMO flowing; so I don't see that happening.
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I don't mean it literally in the sense of opening up the building to create an atria - but at least knocking out some of the retail floors to continue the flow and create an double-height space.

condovo said:
I didn't say retail is dead. I said shopping habits have changed, probably for good, hastened by Covid and inflation.

So, Dolce & Gabbana has decided that Yorkville offers something better than Bloor; Hakim Optical (closed at Bay/Bloor) has competition now from Warby Parker, Ollie Quinn, Bailey Nelson, BonLook, etc.; H&M (closed at Bloor/Yonge) is getting hammered by Uniqlo; and all traditional retail is feeling the heat from online shopping.

These are calculations CF is going to have to make as it moves forward with filling Nordstrom's vacated space. Given the fast-evolving retail landscape, should they just extend the mall with more individual stores as they did with Eaton's/Sears former lower levels? Should they create a higher-end food experience, like individual restaurants or a Time Out Toronto? Should they offer Apple and/or Simons a big flagship space? (The new Apple Store is still too crowded.) A combination of these?
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I'd say a combination of these (maybe in the longer-term, remove retail space from the lower levels near the current glorified food court in order to enable a more authentic food market experience) - but frankly they really need open up the building itself and create more of a presence.

AoD
 
rdaner said:
Could they build a tower on that side?
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The structural grid is way too large in the Nordstrom space, not to mention logistics of integrating new cores, etc. from a new tower. You could put a tower "above" the space but technically a lot of its services, cores, and structure are going to 'fall through' the large-spanned department store space.

If they were going to go the route of adding a tower, they'd almost certainly have to do a lot of demolition and 'insert' a new tower from scratch. Atrium on Bay is looking at their options with that on Yonge St., based on a recent application to city planning, so I imagine CF would consider it here if they decided they could cut out part of the department store footprint.
 
.dwg said:
The structural grid is way too large in the Nordstrom space, not to mention logistics of integrating new cores, etc. from a new tower. You could put a tower "above" the space but technically a lot of its services, cores, and structure are going to 'fall through' the large-spanned department store space.

If they were going to go the route of adding a tower, they'd almost certainly have to do a lot of demolition and 'insert' a new tower from scratch. Atrium on Bay is looking at their options with that on Yonge St., based on a recent application to city planning, so I imagine CF would consider it here if they decided they could cut out part of the department store footprint.
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It is not just the space where the Nordstroms is that they have to worry about.

Don't forget there is a plethora of stores just underneath when you exit Dundas Station. Building a tower where Nordstroms is would mean evicting those stores.
 
What about an art/museum gallery? I don't know how many floors Is now available, but I've always been very meh about walking through Eaton/Sears/Nordstrom to get into (or out of) the mall proper.
 
Richard White said:
It is not just the space where the Nordstroms is that they have to worry about.

Don't forget there is a plethora of stores just underneath when you exit Dundas Station. Building a tower where Nordstroms is would mean evicting those stores.
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That's what I'm referring to. The footprint of Nordstroms and all the levels below would be hugely affected. Even if they had planned from the get-go to put a tower atop the north end of the mall at a later date, it would mean lateral supports, cores, and services all coming down through those floors.
 
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