Toronto Eaton Centre (Ongoing Renewal) | ?m | ?s | Cadillac Fairview | Zeidler

[officedweller]

Yeah, I pause the texting for certain things - stairs, crosswalks and puddles.

***

PS - Transit agencies like people to walk slowly, because it spaces people out so the platforms are not overcrowded.
That's one of the reasons why modern subway transfer stations have long corridors instead of old school direct platform to platform connections (like Bloor-Yonge).
It's intended to provide breathing space for crush capacity crowds.

 

[Natika33]

That may be, but the bottlenecking at the bottom will still be the same. You're still constraining the input by nearly half in order to leave room for people to pass. And even then, any perceived efficiency in walking means absolutely no one can stand on the left.

If speed is the priority, stairs can (and will) always be the faster method. Two steps at a time is manageable on a normal staircase, but far more difficult with the height of escalator steps.



Sure, but it's like saying we should constrict all other car traffic for the sake of those who want to drive fastest, rather than what's best for all.

"One study reported that 74.9 percent of pedestrians choose to stand on the escalator instead of walking. Should an entire lane of the escalator be left open for a small, impatient proportion of the crowd?" -

Why everyone should stand still on an escalator

The best way to ride an escalator isn't what you'd expect, but it's 27 percent more efficient.

www.pbs.org

There will always be people who feel entitled, but the rest of us are not required to indulge that entitlement.

I will refuse to give room for people who assume I should just move out of their way. Often it's on an escalator with stairs right beside it. To me it's the epitome of entitled laziness to ask others to move when there's perfectly good stairs. If I'm on an escalator, it's often with my daughter, one of several of my wife's family members who have Ménière's disease, or others who have disabilities that aren't evident. I'm tall, strong and broad shouldered, and it's almost always on an up-bound escalator when people ask me to move. If they want to mess with me while I have the higher ground, they're welcome to. I usually just point to the stairs and say "you should've taken them; much faster." and they'll sneer or make some quiet remark to themselves.


Okay, but if you miss one, another will be along in a minute. If your plans can come crashing down due to a difference in seconds, the problem lies with your time management and not people on an escalator.

I take some issue with your use of the word "entitlement" here. It's fairly standard worldwide (& on sidewalks & roads too) to have a fast lane and a slow lane. Indeed, even busy staircases develop lanes. Not everyone who walks on an escalator thinks they are somehow better or in more need than those walking - it's simply a custom many have become use to. For example, I have often walked up an escalator simply because I found myself on the walk side & didn't want to be in the way of those behind me. Also, there are plenty of places where a staircase is not nearby & escalators are the main or only viable option. 9.9 times out of 10 people walk respectfully (not run) up the left side so I don't understand why it would be an issue of concern for those with balance/mobility issues or otherwise a major safety issue. I think I can count on 1 hand the number of times I've been bumped by someone passing me on an escalator. Unless there are very clear signs put up asking people not to walk on escalators, I'm fairly sure many people will continue to do so.

 

[UtakataNoAnnex]

I take some issue with your use of the word "entitlement" here. It's fairly standard worldwide (& on sidewalks & roads too) to have a fast lane and a slow lane. Indeed, even busy staircases develop lanes. Not everyone who walks on an elevator thinks they are somehow better or in more need than those walking - it's simply a custom many have become use to. For example, I have often walked up an elevator simply because I found myself on the walk side & didn't want to be in the way of those behind me. Also, there are plenty of places where a staircase is not nearby & escalators are the main or only viable option. 9.9 times out of 10 people walk respectfully (not run) up the left side so I don't understand why it would be an issue of concern for those with balance/mobility issues or otherwise a major safety issue. I think I can count on 1 hand the number of times I've been bumped by someone passing me on an escalator. Unless there are very clear signs put up asking people not to walk on escalators, I'm fairly sure many people will continue to do so.

...sure, not everyone that walks feels entitled. But there are always those that do, regardless of any international "standard" or not here. I feel if someone is standing on a escalator then wait politely behind them or take the stairs. They have their reasons for choosing to stand.

 

[officedweller]

I would say it's a courtesy on the part of the people giving way, rather than an entitlement for the beneficiary.
i.e. you often see clusters of people walking 4 abreast down a city sidewalk. It's not unreasonable for them to reconfigure when passing others into 2x2s so people in the opposing direction (or same direction) can pass.

Same applies to elevators and subway car doors - stand aside to let people off before crowding the doors to get on. It's just common courtesy.
You often see that in residential towers - typically visitors to the building who do not normally use elevators (ie at work) who stand right in the way of exitting passengers. That doesn't usually happen in office towers.

 

[picard102]

Maybe the solution is for people on both sides to walk?

Bingo.

 

[zang]

I would say it's a courtesy on the part of the people giving way, rather than an entitlement for the beneficiary.

in my experience, very few see it as a courtesy, but as a social norm that must be respected at all costs.

When my daughter was just a toddler, I was a stay/work at home dad. I was the type of parent not to have a 5 year old still “needing” a stroller, so I got my daughter used to regularly walking everywhere as early as possible. As such, that meant we’d stand two abreast on escalators. She’d prefer my left hand to hold while walking, so we’d get on escalators with me on the right. That is, after the weeks it took her to conquer her fear of escalators to begin with.

The problem is, small child on the escalator means adults think they can just “squeeze by” without notice, while going up on the left. Regardless of how little space there is.

So I started standing to her left. You’d think that’d give people a signal, but no. It just meant they tried pushing by on the right instead of the left. Twice, she lost her balance and would have fallen were I not holding her hand.

Once a guy “asked” me (if “look out” is a question) to move, and I said “no, I’m with a toddler here”. To which, said person forcefully pushed her into me to get by, then called me a “racist” when I called him a “f-ing a-hole” for trying to knock down a kid. Others yelled at the guy too, after which he signalled that he wanted to fight me (?!) for this perceived transgression (this was Pape, on the way to the OSC, where a flight of empty stairs exists right beside the escalator).

He bolted when I went straight to the collectors booth with a crying toddler, but there’s little that they could do anyway.

Plenty of entitled people exist in the world. The problem is too often we indulge them.

 

[UtakataNoAnnex]

I would say it's a courtesy on the part of the people giving way, rather than an entitlement for the beneficiary.
i.e. you often see clusters of people walking 4 abreast down a city sidewalk. It's not unreasonable for them to reconfigure when passing others into 2x2s so people in the opposing direction (or same direction) can pass.

Same applies to elevators and subway car doors - stand aside to let people off before crowding the doors to get on. It's just common courtesy.
You often see that in residential towers - typically visitors to the building who do not normally use elevators (ie at work) who stand right in the way of exitting passengers. That doesn't usually happen in office towers.

While I had many issues of people conferencing the sidewalk with their buddies - particularly in the height of the pandemic where social distancing policies where forcing others to walk out on the road into oncoming traffic to get around them - I do feel the whataboutisms of what pedestrians are doing on the sidewalks is separate here from moving escalator etiquette. And since the Eaton Centre has mainly wide areas where the public can freely traverse, that is less of a problem here.

Also the same goes for elevator and subway etiquette, which should be treated separately also, IMO.

 

[T.E.C.II]

in my experience, very few see it as a courtesy, but as a social norm that must be respected at all costs.

When my daughter was just a toddler, I was a stay/work at home dad. I was the type of parent not to have a 5 year old still “needing” a stroller, so I got my daughter used to regularly walking everywhere as early as possible. As such, that meant we’d stand two abreast on escalators. She’d prefer my left hand to hold while walking, so we’d get on escalators with me on the right. That is, after the weeks it took her to conquer her fear of escalators to begin with.

The problem is, small child on the escalator means adults think they can just “squeeze by” without notice, while going up on the left. Regardless of how little space there is.

So I started standing to her left. You’d think that’d give people a signal, but no. It just meant they tried pushing by on the right instead of the left. Twice, she lost her balance and would have fallen were I not holding her hand.

Once a guy “asked” me (if “look out” is a question) to move, and I said “no, I’m with a toddler here”. To which, said person forcefully pushed her into me to get by, then called me a “racist” when I called him a “f-ing a-hole” for trying to knock down a kid. Others yelled at the guy two, and he signalled that he wanted to fight me (?!) for this perceived transgression (this was Pape, on the way to the OSC, where a flight of empty stairs exists right beside the escalator).

He bolted when I went straight to the collectors booth with a crying toddler, but there’s little that they could do anyway.

Plenty of entitled people exist in the world. The problem is too often we indulge them.

Did you ever carry your toddler while riding the escalator?

 

[zang]

Did you ever carry your toddler while riding the escalator?

Rarely. It's more dangerous to ride an escalator that way.

 

[evandyk]

Living downtown, we ride a lot of escalators, and I don't think I ever picked our kid up while on an escalator.

 

[zang]

Living downtown, we ride a lot of escalators, and I don't think I ever picked our kid up while on an escalator.

Thinking about it, the only times I did were before she broke her fear of escalators. And only because I’d rather be standing still on an escalator while holding a toddler, than trying to navigate stairs while also doing the same.

 

[Natika33]

in my experience, very few see it as a courtesy, but as a social norm that must be respected at all costs.

When my daughter was just a toddler, I was a stay/work at home dad. I was the type of parent not to have a 5 year old still “needing” a stroller, so I got my daughter used to regularly walking everywhere as early as possible. As such, that meant we’d stand two abreast on escalators. She’d prefer my left hand to hold while walking, so we’d get on escalators with me on the right. That is, after the weeks it took her to conquer her fear of escalators to begin with.

The problem is, small child on the escalator means adults think they can just “squeeze by” without notice, while going up on the left. Regardless of how little space there is.

So I started standing to her left. You’d think that’d give people a signal, but no. It just meant they tried pushing by on the right instead of the left. Twice, she lost her balance and would have fallen were I not holding her hand.

Once a guy “asked” me (if “look out” is a question) to move, and I said “no, I’m with a toddler here”. To which, said person forcefully pushed her into me to get by, then called me a “racist” when I called him a “f-ing a-hole” for trying to knock down a kid. Others yelled at the guy too, after which he signalled that he wanted to fight me (?!) for this perceived transgression (this was Pape, on the way to the OSC, where a flight of empty stairs exists right beside the escalator).

He bolted when I went straight to the collectors booth with a crying toddler, but there’s little that they could do anyway.

Plenty of entitled people exist in the world. The problem is too often we indulge them.

That was clearly a very rude individual. Most times people waited did they not? The exception doesn't make the rule. I feel for you and I agree that the walking side should use sound judgment such that if a toddler or an older person, etc was on the left, one should just be patient and also stand, but under regular circumstances, I really don't see why walking up the left is such a terrible thing.

 

[officedweller]

in my experience, very few see it as a courtesy, but as a social norm that must be respected at all costs.

When my daughter was just a toddler, I was a stay/work at home dad. I was the type of parent not to have a 5 year old still “needing” a stroller, so I got my daughter used to regularly walking everywhere as early as possible. As such, that meant we’d stand two abreast on escalators. She’d prefer my left hand to hold while walking, so we’d get on escalators with me on the right. That is, after the weeks it took her to conquer her fear of escalators to begin with.

The problem is, small child on the escalator means adults think they can just “squeeze by” without notice, while going up on the left. Regardless of how little space there is.

So I started standing to her left. You’d think that’d give people a signal, but no. It just meant they tried pushing by on the right instead of the left. Twice, she lost her balance and would have fallen were I not holding her hand.

Once a guy “asked” me (if “look out” is a question) to move, and I said “no, I’m with a toddler here”. To which, said person forcefully pushed her into me to get by, then called me a “racist” when I called him a “f-ing a-hole” for trying to knock down a kid. Others yelled at the guy too, after which he signalled that he wanted to fight me (?!) for this perceived transgression (this was Pape, on the way to the OSC, where a flight of empty stairs exists right beside the escalator).

He bolted when I went straight to the collectors booth with a crying toddler, but there’s little that they could do anyway.

Plenty of entitled people exist in the world. The problem is too often we indulge them.

I often see people with a child have the child on the step in front of them, although that really only works when going up since the child would be at an elevation where you could lift them to help them exit.

As you mention, there are always exceptions - your child example being one, likewise for seniors or those awkward escalators that are 1.5 people wide.

 

[zang]

That was clearly a very rude individual. Most times people waited did they not? The exception doesn't make the rule. I feel for you and I agree that the walking side should use sound judgment such that if a toddler or an older person, etc was on the left, one should just be patient and also stand, but under regular circumstances, I really don't see why walking up the left is such a terrible thing.

Because there are plenty of people out there with "invisible" disabilities, claustrophobia, etc.

As I've pointed out, Ménière's disease runs in my wife's family. It struck my wife younger than most, and it can mean sudden bouts of dizziness and instability. Being unstable and having to move or get bumped while standing on the edge of what's essentially a moving steel hill aren't a recipe for happy, stress free mobility. And yes, even standing right does not mean people don't get bumped or brushed by those walking on the left. Making the assumption that you have the right of way just because you want to be faster means people like her have to move out of your path. All for a few seconds difference in time.

Escalators are not only a convenience for all, but an accessibility device for many others who you don't know may need it.

And again, "two lanes" is less efficient and breaks the machines. Walk left is done purely for the convenience of ¼ of escalator riders those who don't want to wait a few seconds, but also don't want to walk up a whole flight of stairs.

The widest commonly used escalators are 40". You'll note that in the building code, a ~35.5" width (900mm) is the law for stairs in public spaces, and that minimum is there for a single person. Meaning, if we're to treat escalators like stairs, we're giving a whopping 4.5" extra space to allow people to go a little bit faster on the left. If you can't see that as a problem, I don't know what's going to convince you.

When I'm on my own, I take the stairs unless otherwise required. If speed is your priority, I suggest you do so as well.

 

[Natika33]

Because there are plenty of people out there with "invisible" disabilities, claustrophobia, etc.

As I've pointed out, Ménière's disease runs in my wife's family. It struck my wife younger than most, and it can mean sudden bouts of dizziness and instability. Being unstable and having to move or get bumped while standing on the edge of what's essentially a moving steel hill aren't a recipe for happy, stress free mobility. And yes, even standing right does not mean people don't get bumped or brushed by those walking on the left. Making the assumption that you have the right of way just because you want to be faster means people like her have to move out of your path. All for a few seconds difference in time.

Escalators are not only a convenience for all, but an accessibility device for many others who you don't know may need it.

And again, "two lanes" is less efficient and breaks the machines. Walk left is done purely for the convenience of ¼ of escalator riders those who don't want to wait a few seconds, but also don't want to walk up a whole flight of stairs.

The widest commonly used escalators are 40". You'll note that in the building code, a ~35.5" width (900mm) is the law for public spaces, and that minimum is there for a single person. Meaning, if we're to treat escalators like stairs, we're giving a whopping 4.5" extra space to allow people to go a little bit faster on the left. If you can't see that as a problem, I don't know what's going to convince you.

When I'm on my own, I take the stairs unless otherwise required. If speed is your priority, I suggest you do so as well.

I usually do take the stairs actually. And now that the Eaton Centre has added more, it makes it that much easier to choose that option. Your bolded text includes a good point I hadn't considered before. If you are this passionate about it, I hope you are complaining or petitioning the powers-that-be to add signs to escalators informing people they should not walk. Until it is an official rule, I am afraid you will continue to have to contend with many who really have no idea why they shouldn't.