Toronto East Harbour | 214.2m | 65s | Cadillac Fairview | Adamson

Bjays92 said:
To build on this. It's why so many people prefer old secluded Victorian era houses or the likes as their dream home, over a townhouse or duplex.

The interior could be nicer with better amenities in the townhouse but they'd still prefer a Victorian house tucked away where no one else can see. Exterior aesthetics are a huge factor in buildings and unfortunately even the assumptions we make about who lives there.
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*nods*

Bjays92 said:
That said I dont worry much about how these buildings will look. They'll be fine......
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Uhhh, hold on..........this is Cadillac Fairview we're talking about.

The same firm that has made a hash of the Eaton Centre over the years, the nice pedestrian bridge over to HBC excepted.

Also the same firm that turfed Great Gulf's renowned Landscape/Planning firm from this proposal in favour of less renowned contributors..........

From the people who brought you Shoppes on Don Mills; and desecrated the only redeeming features of Sherway Gardens.......

I think I will have some concern over their willingness and ability to execute good architecture......

But that's the pessimist in me talking..........this could be their turnaround moment!

Bjays92 said:
, it's just the tabletop that's the issue at the moment and it was just mentioned how the city has already pointed that out.
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That's the immediate concern, no question. But there's little else to critique the details of just yet, excepting the basic layout of the community, which is also a point of concern as expressed by the City.
 
Northern Light said:
*nods*



Uhhh, hold on..........this is Cadillac Fairview we're talking about.

The same firm that has made a hash of the Eaton Centre over the years, the nice pedestrian bridge over to HBC excepted.

Also the same firm that turfed Great Gulf's renowned Landscape/Planning firm from this proposal in favour of less renowned contributors..........

From the people who brought you Shoppes on Don Mills; and desecrated the only redeeming features of Sherway Gardens.......

I think I will have some concern over their willingness and ability to execute good architecture......

But that's the pessimist in me talking..........this could be their turnaround moment!



That's the immediate concern, no question. But there's little else to critique the details of just yet, excepting the basic layout of the community, which is also a point of concern as expressed by the City.
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I didnt realise CF had a bad track record tbh. I just assumed this would be high quality. I guess we'll see though. They've done a reasonable job with the Fairview Park mall upgrade in kitchener so far.
 
UT's own @AlexBozikovic has a very good piece in today's Globe and Mail on the subject of East Harbour.

In it, he broadly agrees with City planners that the Soap Factory building needs to be retained; and gives a hard time to the massing as well as the general idea of a single, master-planned community
of this size, citing too much regularity, conformism etc.

Article here: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/can...neighbourhood-be-a-place-worth-visiting-with/

(Article via the link above was not paywalled to me); if you have issues, go to the Globe's site and try accessing the article via the Canada section, (as I did), it was paywalled via the front page.

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Of note from the article:

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Also:

We learn that KPF is already at work on the first new tower. And others are being considered:

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Northern Light said:
UT's own @AlexBozikovic has a very good piece in today's Globe and Mail on the subject of East Harbour.

In it, he broadly agrees with City planners that the Soap Factory building needs to be retained; and gives a hard time to the massing as well as the general idea of a single, master-planned community
of this size, citing too much regularity, conformism etc.

Article here: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/can...neighbourhood-be-a-place-worth-visiting-with/

(Article via the link above was not paywalled to me); if you have issues, go to the Globe's site and try accessing the article via the Canada section, (as I did), it was paywalled via the front page.

*****

Of note from the article:

View attachment 366380

*****

Also:

We learn that KPF is already at work on the first new tower. And others are being considered:

View attachment 366381
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I personally feel like preserving the soap factory is a dumb hill to die on, especially when the other critiques are so valid.

There is not enough variation in building height, so there are no layers to the new skyline it’s creating. All the renderings are of blue glass buildings - me need more colors, textures, and variety. We need some taller towers and some shorter.

Despite everything said so far about public realm, it’s very unclear whether these are going to be long strips of class frontage that are characterless and indistinguishable.

I’d love to see them take some of the principles and from the Mirvish Village development to break up the buildings/retail at street level.

The soap factory doesn’t have to be retained for this to be an interesting space to be in. It just needs more variety and character than the current plan.
 
lomeri said:
I personally feel like preserving the soap factory is a dumb hill to die on
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Not sure I agree here. While the Soap Factory isn't the most remarkable of buildings, it is of a style that simply won't be replicated in new construction. If offers a type of variety that simply won't be there anymore if it's removed.
That variety in style, in massing and in interior dimensions is the sort of thing that adds character and flavour to a neighbourhood.

Can you build that in new? Sure you can. But it takes a willingness to plunk a sub-optimally laid out building, with sub-optimal height into your new development, all the while spending extra per ft2 building it.
I find it improbable that CF would manage that; and therefore understand the desire to preserve what's there.

lomeri said:
There is not enough variation in building height, so there are no layers to the new skyline it’s creating. All the renderings are of blue glass buildings - me need more colors, textures, and variety. We need some taller towers and some shorter.
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We really don't have any information on colour palette or materiality yet, what we're looking at is all place-holder stuff; except for the broad massing and the layout of the community.

Those latter bits are key.

lomeri said:
Despite everything said so far about public realm, it’s very unclear whether these are going to be long strips of class frontage that are characterless and indistinguishable.
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True. But we do have the basic massing; and it's not promising.

lomeri said:
I’d love to see them take some of the principles and from the Mirvish Village development to break up the buildings/retail at street level.
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Agree completely. The granularity achieved with MV is outstanding and very emulation-worthy. A curious point though, MV is preserving not only multiple-heritage buildings on Markham Street, but also working in/around a couple on Bathurst as well. That really helps MV to be a better concept.

lomeri said:
The soap factory doesn’t have to be retained for this to be an interesting space to be in.
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True..............if you trust CF to be that creative and thoughtful in its choices.

lomeri said:
It just needs more variety and character than the current plan.
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Yes.
 
I like the quote from the CF VP. "It just doesn’t work in terms of our current plans.”

Ummmm... you could change your plans?

To me, the soap factory building is the one thing about this site that is totally unique. Why would you not want to make something of that? Otherwise, just build this thing on top of Yorkdale Mall.
 
Northern Light said:
(Article via the link above was not paywalled to me); if you have issues, go to the Globe's site and try accessing the article via the Canada section, (as I did), it was paywalled via the front page.
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It's all paywalled now. >.<

...so I guess we're not getting some big named European outfit to gives us that woody, organic undulating feel for this? As it looks like from those involved currently we're getting another set of glass boxes with balconies that attempt to obscure they're just glass boxes. /sigh
 
evandyk said:
I like the quote from the CF VP. "It just doesn’t work in terms of our current plans.”

Ummmm... you could change your plans?

To me, the soap factory building is the one thing about this site that is totally unique. Why would you not want to make something of that? Otherwise, just build this thing on top of Yorkdale Mall.
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Well, the rest of the quote was: Mr. Barwise [CF VP] rejects the idea. “The building is functionally obsolete; it has structural deficiencies and some environmental issues,” he said. “It just doesn’t work in terms of our current plans.”

The building is architecturally unremarkable, with multiple additions and alterations, poor site placement, and it's not hard to imagine that a chemical factory would have some environmental issues.

I think it's fair for the City to demand a great effort at building character into the area, but the cost of retaining the factory seems high. I'd rather the resources went elsewhere.
 
It is probably high. But we're talking about a project that will cost billions of dollars to build. This is the one unique thing about the area where the project will be built.
 
mcornett said:
Well, the rest of the quote was: Mr. Barwise [CF VP] rejects the idea. “The building is functionally obsolete; it has structural deficiencies and some environmental issues,” he said. “It just doesn’t work in terms of our current plans.”

The building is architecturally unremarkable, with multiple additions and alterations, poor site placement, and it's not hard to imagine that a chemical factory would have some environmental issues.

I think it's fair for the City to demand a great effort at building character into the area, but the cost of retaining the factory seems high. I'd rather the resources went elsewhere.
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There were a lot of challenges when I was on the team looking into it years ago. Partly the flood management of the area for the Don River requires that since the building is already in the flood plain that if it is taken out a bunch of the land in the area gets turned into a large flood mitigation berm. Now with that we were only really keeping the structure and rebuilding a similar look façade, it kept the character but was pretty much a full tear down.

Other buildings on the site which you have seen in the older renders were kept as well and buildings positioned around them to keep them. It is a shame even the smaller ones aren't, as existing brick buildings to me look better than the newer faux brick precast that comes these days.

As for the heights, we had the ability to go up to 250m due to the angular plane from the housing across Eastern Ave. to me I personally feel this doesn't make sense since those homes eventually should be moved to at least the missing middle and not be single family homes next to a downtown (Mississauga). That change would allow a bit larger building height variation while keeping the same square footage they were aiming for, as right now most of those buildings have to be maxed in heights to keep that area while not providing even larger podiums.

Hopefully there are a few more iterations to this before they really start construction.
 
Northern Light said:
UT's own @AlexBozikovic has a very good piece in today's Globe and Mail on the subject of East Harbour.

In it, he broadly agrees with City planners that the Soap Factory building needs to be retained; and gives a hard time to the massing as well as the general idea of a single, master-planned community
of this size, citing too much regularity, conformism etc.

Article here: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/can...neighbourhood-be-a-place-worth-visiting-with/

(Article via the link above was not paywalled to me); if you have issues, go to the Globe's site and try accessing the article via the Canada section, (as I did), it was paywalled via the front page.

*****

Of note from the article:

View attachment 366380

*****

Also:

We learn that KPF is already at work on the first new tower. And others are being considered:

View attachment 366381
Click to expand...

I would actually be easier on Union Park (which is basically just a single linear block) than this - practically a CityPlace scaled neighbourhood.

AoD
 
It would have been nice to host international design competitions for the district, akin to quayside, but the province and the city are too cookie-cutter
and don't care about doing something like that.
 
abovegrade said:
It would have been nice to host international design competitions for the district, akin to quayside, but the province and the city are too cookie-cutter
and don't care about doing something like that.
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They had OMA for the initial master plan - and they quickly ditched it. Now the whole thing looked like a cube with road cuts volumetrically.

AoD
 
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