SaugeenJunction
Senior Member
Minister’s Zoning Orders (MZOs) have been issued for most of the TOC sites including East Harbour for the Ontario Line and others, thus the planning approvals are provincial.
Toronto East Harbour | 214.2m | 65s | Cadillac Fairview | Adamson
- Thread starter taal
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innsertnamehere
Superstar
I mean "sticking to their guns" will only result in an undeveloped site here. Nobody is going to build money-losing office buildings for no reason.
This project was questionably ambitious even before COVID destroyed the office market. Now it's effectively impossible.
HousingNowTO
Senior Member
No, that change has not formally been submitted... yet... but it will come -- likely before the next Provincial election.Minor variance as in, "We don't need stinkin' offices no more?"
These are the Ten (10) x MINOR VARIANCES that were at CoA last week ...
ProjectEnd
Superstar
Cadillac Fairview "knew" when they closed on this transaction on September 25, 2019 that the world was going to change more than any event since perhaps WW2 on March 14, 2020?
Northern Light
Superstar
The site needn't be built out all at once, indeed, it was always envisioned as a phased project rolling over 7+ years
There is certainly a case to be made for shifting large office buildings to a later phase, I'm not sure there' any argument for cutting them entirely or reducing them greatly. CF has a sufficient time horizon on behalf of its owners to landbank for a decade or more on portion of the site.
The office market recovery in Class A space downtown is also underway.......and will pick up steam shortly.
Its B and C buildings whose numbers will lag for some time to come, and many of those will be converted or torn down.
A new Class A building here beside a brand new Transit Hub will fill, by 2030'ish.
I don't agree. I think if you said, doesn't make sense fiscally in the near term.........that I could support.
Northern Light
Superstar
I would start by saying, in general............a deal is a deal even when it stinks.
Can you imagine the government going to a private sector partner after having struck a deal that is binding and saying, "ya know, the politics and the budget outlook have changed, we don't think you should hold us to our contractual obligations.........and that being met with a 'Sure, we'll be happy to chop our margin in 1/2'......... I mean you couldn't have known things would change" .
If you can, please refresh me on when that happened.........
Elsewise, while I'm happy enough to concede that CF could not have foreseen the state of the office market in 2024, in 2019, I'm unclear on why that should be the City of Toronto's problem.
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That said, I'm happy to consider reasonable accommodation on phasing and push the office building out by 4-6 years to align with market recovery and with the opening of the East Habour Transit Hub.
But any benefits associated with that first phase as currently written should still be paid upfront and credited on the back end.
CF can afford it.
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innsertnamehere
Superstar
It was undoubtedly ambitious in the pre-covid market. IIRC the 10,000,000 of office space originally planned here represented about ~10 years of office space absorption across the entire GTA market, and was proposed by a single landlord in a single location which is not exactly the most desirable office location in the city, albeit a good one. Perhaps not impossible, but absolutely highly ambitious.
I never stated that I thought office space here should be eliminated. Ultimately however CF is still officially planning 10,000,000 of office space here in a market which will be lucky to see an absorption rate at half that of the pre-COVID market and which is experiencing a "flight to quality" - i.e. new space around Union Station.
I do think we will see office starts again within a few years, but less in less prime areas and all starts at a slower pace than before COVID. I imagine that yes, CF could manage to fill a few buildings here over the long term. But not anywhere close to 10,000,000sf.
I never stated that I thought office space here should be eliminated. Ultimately however CF is still officially planning 10,000,000 of office space here in a market which will be lucky to see an absorption rate at half that of the pre-COVID market and which is experiencing a "flight to quality" - i.e. new space around Union Station.
I do think we will see office starts again within a few years, but less in less prime areas and all starts at a slower pace than before COVID. I imagine that yes, CF could manage to fill a few buildings here over the long term. But not anywhere close to 10,000,000sf.
HousingNowTO
Senior Member
Given that the site is at a Transit Hub which is 1-STOP to Union Station, Metro Toronto Convention Centre, Rogers Centre and Scotiabank arena... and only 2-STOPS to Exhibition Station, Convention Centres and BMO Field -- I would hope (and expect) to see CF convert some of their "Office-Employment" buildings over to "Hotel-Employment" buildings to maintain some of the "EMPLOYMENT LANDS" without having to be dependent upon "back-to-work" standards at Bay Street type firms.
www.thestar.com
Checking in? Here’s why hotels will likely cost you more in 2024
Rates across Canada are expected to increase according to a report by American Express Global Business Travel, including a nearly seven per cent increase in Toronto.
www.thestar.com
Northern Light
Superstar
I'm happy to agree w/the above..........but w/the proviso that given the phasing and time horizons here, I think any significant, overall, reduction in office commitment here is premature.
Push the first tower back a bit in the timeline........we'll revisit what to do w/towers 2 and 3 etc. closer to the window where those obligations would kick-in.
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Given that the site is at a Transit Hub which is 1-STOP to Union Station, Metro Toronto Convention Centre, Rogers Centre and Scotiabank arena... and only 2-STOPS to Exhibition Station, Convention Centres and BMO Field -- I would hope (and expect) to see CF convert some of their "Office-Employment" buildings over to "Hotel-Employment" buildings to maintain some of the "EMPLOYMENT LANDS" without having to be dependent upon "back-to-work" standards at Bay Street type firms.
Checking in? Here’s why hotels will likely cost you more in 2024
Rates across Canada are expected to increase according to a report by American Express Global Business Travel, including a nearly seven per cent increase in Toronto.
I'm certainly not averse to more hotel space, seeing as the City is well short of the needed level of supply and would be even shorter still if we rightly cracked down on the short-term rental market.
As to whether that should result in an overall reduction of office space over the full-term of site build-out...........I think I'd rather play the wait and see game; and simply say, I'd accept that swap out on office tower one, (mixed office/hotel) then lets see where the market is at when we get to the obligation for subsequent towers.
Of course, if CF were to voluntarily increase its affordable housing commitment, I might take a more sympathetic view.
Amare
Senior Member
Not implying that they did, but you make a major deal like that you have to be able to handle the risks associated with it. No one was putting a gun to CF's head to acquire the site in it's entirety, or at all.
Brands
Active Member
CF hasn't even leased the 44-storey office building that has been marketed for years. You expect them to find tenants for 10 million square feet of office space? Good luck with that.
The market has changed but society has also changed.
The market has changed but society has also changed.
ProjectEnd
Superstar
In principle, I don't disagree at all with either of you. You'll certainly not find me advocating for corporate welfare at any level.
That said, when the not only the fundamentals but the whole damn game has changed to the degree it has (again, I can't think of anything that's altered business, especially the leasing of commercial office space, as much as has COVID), I do think there's an opportunity to alter things that had been set in stone. I'm also not saying it's all carrots here - if CF wants something, they should also be prepared to accept measures imposed by the City. Whether that's affordable housing, community space, more parkland, infrastructure / transit creation, whatever, any 'give' to CF should absolutely come as part of a package deal.
Will it? I'm doubtful.
flonicky
Senior Member
rdaner
Senior Member
^Great pix! I am very keen to see how this turns out with landscaping as it appears that they are looking at creating a boulevard of sorts.
HousingNowTO
Senior Member
From staff report at next week's PHC -
related to additional permissions is expected to be considered."
ITEM - https://secure.toronto.ca/council/agenda-item.do?item=2024.PH17.4
PH17.4 - Our Plan Toronto: Recommendations on the East Harbour Employment Area Conversion Request - Final Report
"Given the overlap in interest between the East Harbour employment conversion request and the negotiation of additional residential permissions, Staff recommend that consideration of this report be deferred to no later than the June 12, 2025 meeting of the Planning and Housing Committee when the outcome of the ongoing negotiationsrelated to additional permissions is expected to be considered."
ITEM - https://secure.toronto.ca/council/agenda-item.do?item=2024.PH17.4