marcus_a_j
Senior Member
Martin Goodman Trail.
Toronto Daniels Waterfront - City of the Arts | 156.05m | 45s | Daniels | RAW Design
- Thread starter AlbertC
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Start Fox
Active Member
I agree wholeheartedly. I think the issue with the waterfront is the Westin more than Redpath. I highly doubt the Westin gets torn down though, so I think the best solution would be if they created artificial land where the current ferry terminal is and extended the park 100m out into the lake and put the new ferry terminal there - would make the ferry terminal a real destination that you could see from anywhere along the waterfront (kind of like how the Sydney Opera House juts out, making it a centrepiece) while also compensating for the space that the Westin takes up. Can't imagine it would be that much more expensive to do, what with all the dirt being dug up from nearby developments.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
The issue isn't the lack of land for the ferry terminal - but that it is difficult to establish a presence for it relative to the rest of the city and Queen's Quay. The current plans for improving Harbour Square Park and redoing the western edge of Yonge slip will help.
AoD
innsertnamehere
Superstar
didn't Westin just sell for huge money - i.e. clearly intended for development?
It may not be completely demolished, but I imagine that it will recieve huge renos and a few new towers.
It may not be completely demolished, but I imagine that it will recieve huge renos and a few new towers.
DSC
Superstar
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The Conference Centre, yes. See: https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/westin-harbour-castle.24972/page-7
Start Fox
Active Member
I agree that lack of land isn't an issue per se, but I think more land would be better. It would allow Harbour Square Park to really be expanded (and to allow more land for the western edge of the Yonge Slip to connect over to Harbour Square Park). The Westin should never have been allowed to go so close to the waterfront (on the eastern side) and ferry terminal (on the south side). This would solve that and fits into the idea of the ferry terminal renos. I've always thought Toronto should have a protuberance (nice word eh?) from the waterfront and I can't think of anywhere where it is more badly needed and where there is a potential landmark public building (the ferry terminal).
Based on that thread, seems to me the Conference Centre hasn't sold, just that there was a proposal by Freed to purchase it 2-3 years ago but that nothing has come from it. So far as anyone seems to know, neither the Westin Hotel nor the Conference Centre (which is on city-owned land) have sold.
Midtown Urbanist
Superstar
There are just two things I want from RedPath.
The pedestrian experience along Queens Quay East to be enhanced, and that blank wall at the Pier 27 property line to have a mural.
The pedestrian experience along Queens Quay East to be enhanced, and that blank wall at the Pier 27 property line to have a mural.
sammmy
New Member
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Bleh. It isn't the use of window wall that is the problem in this particular case - but the sheer amount of mullions going along with it. If you think the amenities floor is bad...
AoD
AoD
bilked
Senior Member
From the Globe and Mail article:
It doesn’t help when your first two retail offerings are a Starbucks and an RBC. Not sure how “creative-types” are supposed to do anything with that type of space.
This seems to follow the same pattern as Regent Park. Daniels is great at securing a headline-splashing creative-industries instituitonal tenant (and then using this as the centre for their marketing) but then pairing this tenant with extremely conservative chain retail (banks, Subway, Shoppers, etc) that suck up a sense of identity and neighbourhood from their buildings.
You can do better than Starbucks and RBC Daniels.
What it lacks, to some degree, is soul. Thoughtful interior design, by Quadrangle, leavens the standard commercial construction details of the building – poured concrete slabs and exposed mechanical services – with some clever dashes of colour and texture. There are breakout rooms lined with hot blue and orange textiles, and a meeting room lined with a salvaged gym floor. Still. “This is a brand-new building, and it’s squeaky clean,” acknowledges architect Tor McGlade of Quadrangle. “We’ve tried to moderate that, but we realize that in the end, the makers will make the space interesting.” With luck, they’ll do that for the neighbourhood, too.
It doesn’t help when your first two retail offerings are a Starbucks and an RBC. Not sure how “creative-types” are supposed to do anything with that type of space.
This seems to follow the same pattern as Regent Park. Daniels is great at securing a headline-splashing creative-industries instituitonal tenant (and then using this as the centre for their marketing) but then pairing this tenant with extremely conservative chain retail (banks, Subway, Shoppers, etc) that suck up a sense of identity and neighbourhood from their buildings.
You can do better than Starbucks and RBC Daniels.
Jowblow333333
Active Member
Creative types and Starbucks mix all the time. I know plenty of those types that work in coffee shops. Banks on the other hand...
bilked
Senior Member
Yeah artists drink coffee too and I’m sure a bunch of them at this office will end up slumming it at Starbucks.
But compare your typical Starbucks to the coffee shops around OCAD proper (including, for example, the excellent Red Eye Espresso in Beaver Hall co-op). Those are places that art students actually work in, hang out in, curate the music, flyer their shows, etc. They’re places that actually serve the art community (beyond caffeine-delivery). The community needs a ton of those little gestures at least as much as it needs big macro institutional ones, like grant-funded incubator space.
But compare your typical Starbucks to the coffee shops around OCAD proper (including, for example, the excellent Red Eye Espresso in Beaver Hall co-op). Those are places that art students actually work in, hang out in, curate the music, flyer their shows, etc. They’re places that actually serve the art community (beyond caffeine-delivery). The community needs a ton of those little gestures at least as much as it needs big macro institutional ones, like grant-funded incubator space.
Agreed. But that's the way retail works in new developments. Daniels does do a lot to foster local arts but they went with Starbucks and not some mom and pop. Too bad for that.
bilked
Senior Member
I certainly wouldn’t give Daniels a failing city-building grade either. But they do need to be pushed on their retail tenant procuments.
Compare Brad Lamb in the east end to Daniels on this point. Or to the Canary block or distillery. Lots of better precedents.
Schmancy gentrified retail obviously doesn’t make an arts scene. But RBC, Wendy’s, Subway, Shoppers, Yogen Frutz, Scotiabank, Tim Hortons, Starbucks (Daniels’ east end tenants)... looks like a race to the bottom.
Compare Brad Lamb in the east end to Daniels on this point. Or to the Canary block or distillery. Lots of better precedents.
Schmancy gentrified retail obviously doesn’t make an arts scene. But RBC, Wendy’s, Subway, Shoppers, Yogen Frutz, Scotiabank, Tim Hortons, Starbucks (Daniels’ east end tenants)... looks like a race to the bottom.