Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[northto]

Paraphrasing Steve Munro, there are two aspects of the Spadina line that differentiate it from a modern LRT line of the type being discussed on Eg / Shep / Finch:
- Stop spacing: the classical streetcar concept we are used to (with vehicles running in mixed traffic) is slower than a modern LRT lrt line because of the LRT's separate right of way *and* because LRT stops are spaced further apart; plans for LRTs put stops some 800-1000m apart (i.e. major arterial intersections only, similar to a subway), theoretically yielding a maximum 5-6 min walk between stations (assuming a walking speed of 80m/min)
- Transit priority: TTC engineers, line management and city officials have not been particularly successful in applying signal transit priority at intersections on the Spadina line, hence streetcars wait more than they should in a modern LRT application.

While these details may seem trivial in comparison to very visible differences like built form (i.e. ROWs) and vehicles that look similar to streetcars, they are not. It is the sum of these factors that differentiates streetcar from modern LRT.

Taking stop spacing and transit priority into account, the closest approximation to the new LRT lines that is currently operating in Toronto is the 501 Queen line on the Queensway strech west of Roncesvalles and south of High Park.

 

[andrewpmk]

So? You listed three extensions, remember. I didn't generate the forecasts of the past few years, so take the issue up with them. Although, the 85+190 combo might run thorugh a lower modal share area than Eglinton West (more room to grow), and it also has, you know, stuff along it. The city is planning for almost 9000 people at Warden & Sheppard, for instance.

1,500 per hour seems pretty standard for Toronto, where most major arterial routes see 30,000+ riders a day. Eglinton West isn't special or significant. It's just funded.

Bus ridership is not indicative of potential demand. Eglinton West is probably the worst congested road in the city. An Eglinton subway will take people off Eglinton, Bloor-Danforth subway, and 401 and connect to the airport. There is massive potential demand here.

 

[gweed123]

Bus ridership is not indicative of potential demand. Eglinton West is probably the worst congested road in the city. An Eglinton subway will take people off Eglinton, Bloor-Danforth subway, and 401 and connect to the airport. There is massive potential demand here.

Exactly. In order to determine what type of potential ridership actually exists, you need to look at:

-How many people are taking parallel routes who would switch if a rapid transit option were offered (for example, how many more people would be taking the Dupont bus if the Bloor-Danforth Subway wasn't a block away).

-How many people don't take that route because of the poor quality of service. This is pretty hard to quantify, because it needs to look at how many people "would take it, but just don't wanna right now".

 

[Justin10000]

No one is going to alter their commute just because a rapid transit line is built a block away. Finch Riders are not going switch to a Sheppard Subway because it's a subway.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Mammoliti said that he supports subways on Finch. This is the first time I've ever heard a Finch subway mentioned. This is just another example of empty transit promises by Ford and Co.

 

[a0th]

No one is going to alter their commute just because of a rapid transit line because of a rapid transit. Finch Riders are not going switch to a Sheppard Subway because it's a subway.

really? I ride my bike because it's faster than the streetcar but if there was a subway I'd take it instead.

 

[nfitz]

Mammoliti said that he supports subways on Finch. This is the first time I've ever heard a Finch subway mentioned. This is just another example of empty transit promises by Ford and Co.

Rob Ford was talking about a subway on Finch West months ago.

Not that it has meaning ...

 

[BurlOak]

The three extensions you mentioned would all be busier than Eglinton West. Eglinton East is another thing (especially once you dump half the SRT riders onto it), but the difference for Eglinton West is that there's nothing there. No jobs, no schools, no malls, few large concentrations of people, very little prospects for redevelopment, and maybe, what, 1,500 people per hour now on the bus? There's only so many people that will be diverted from other routes (and of course, no mention is ever made of GO integration for areas like Rexdale) and the 'airport market' is much smaller than it seems. But it's all moot because Eglinton got funded, though the line may never actually reach the airport, anyway.

I am having real trouble following facts here.

Eglinton West, with 1,500 people per hour should have had a subway 15 years ago and Harris was wrong to cancel it. Also no concerns that if built as subway it would either have to be extended as subway or LRT with a transfer.

Sheppard subway, with 4.500 people per hour should not have been built as a subway 15 years ago and Harris was wrong to build it. Also, by building it, the line now has to be extended with subway (which is too costly), or LRT with a transfer.

A number of facts here do not add up, I am not quite sure which ones.

 

[nfitz]

A number of facts here do not add up, I am not quite sure which ones.

Perhaps the biggest one is that the demand on the Eglinton Crosstown is far higher than 1,500, or on a completed Sheppard. I'd suggest you check your numbers.

 

[gweed123]

Perhaps the biggest one is that the demand on the Eglinton Crosstown is far higher than 1,500, or on a completed Sheppard. I'd suggest you check your numbers.

IIRC, the projected numbers for Eglinton West from the Allen to Black Creek were pretty similar to what was forecasted for Sheppard from Yonge to Victoria Park, weren't they? They were certainly in the same ballpark.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Paraphrasing Steve Munro, there are two aspects of the Spadina line that differentiate it from a modern LRT line of the type being discussed on Eg / Shep / Finch:
- Stop spacing: the classical streetcar concept we are used to (with vehicles running in mixed traffic) is slower than a modern LRT lrt line because of the LRT's separate right of way *and* because LRT stops are spaced further apart; plans for LRTs put stops some 800-1000m apart (i.e. major arterial intersections only, similar to a subway), theoretically yielding a maximum 5-6 min walk between stations (assuming a walking speed of 80m/min)
- Transit priority: TTC engineers, line management and city officials have not been particularly successful in applying signal transit priority at intersections on the Spadina line, hence streetcars wait more than they should in a modern LRT application.

While these details may seem trivial in comparison to very visible differences like built form (i.e. ROWs) and vehicles that look similar to streetcars, they are not. It is the sum of these factors that differentiates streetcar from modern LRT.

Taking stop spacing and transit priority into account, the closest approximation to the new LRT lines that is currently operating in Toronto is the 501 Queen line on the Queensway strech west of Roncesvalles and south of High Park.

I have used the 501 on the Queensway stretch. It is not used as a LRT .

1. There are speed limit signs for the streetcars that say "7 km/h" where the streetcars cross intersections at Colborne Lodge Dr., Ellis Ave., and Windermere Ave. Why?
2. There is no transit priority, that I have witnessed. They may delay the green, but most of the time I see the streetcars having to wait at red lights.
3. The South Kingsway stop is not needed, as it is too close to Windermere. It just would slow the streetcars.
4. No transit signals that are similar to what the rest of world uses. They can be confused with regular traffic signals.

Ontario transit signal (singular):

Transit signals (plural) in other parts of the world:

I said "streetcars", because the Queensway is not an LRT, as is not St. Clair, nor is Spadina. The powers-that-be should upgrade the Queensway to LRT standards, starting with the removal of the South Kingsway stop. Unfortunately, the pubic works & infrastructure department chair is Denzil Minnan-Wong, so I don't expect any change (unless he sees the [transit] light).

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Bus ridership is not indicative of potential demand. Eglinton West is probably the worst congested road in the city. An Eglinton subway will take people off Eglinton, Bloor-Danforth subway, and 401 and connect to the airport. There is massive potential demand here.

Exactly. In order to determine what type of potential ridership actually exists, you need to look at:

-How many people are taking parallel routes who would switch if a rapid transit option were offered (for example, how many more people would be taking the Dupont bus if the Bloor-Danforth Subway wasn't a block away).

-How many people don't take that route because of the poor quality of service. This is pretty hard to quantify, because it needs to look at how many people "would take it, but just don't wanna right now".

Actually, bus ridership is indicative in combination with other factors. Unfortunately, Eglinton has no trip generators along it between Yonge and the airport. The largest is probably, what, Richview Collegiate? There's also huge voids like Eglinton Flats, and vast swaths of single family houses. Since there's so few large trip generators on Eglinton and since tons of the traffic on Eglinton is simply due to it being a rare through-route, you're not going to take a bite out of car traffic with a line there. It'll just be a local feeder line, not some kind of transit miracle.

Again, the factors you two mentioned are not unique to Eglinton. There's congestion everywhere. If you put a subway line anywhere, people will switch to it from other routes. It's a huge strategic blunder to prioritize Eglinton and base the most expensive thing ever built in this city on the vague hope that X,000 people per hour might be cannibalized from other routes because it's somewhat more convenient than the route they're currently taking for an intermediate leg of their commute.

 

[Rainforest]

No one is going to alter their commute just because a rapid transit line is built a block away. Finch Riders are not going switch to a Sheppard Subway because it's a subway.

Of course the long-haul riders would switch, if the subway was longer.

I live close to the Steeles / Bathurst highrise cluster. Do you think more people take bus 60 (4 km to Yonge subway), or bus 7 all the way down Bathurst (14 km to Bloor subway)? Bus 60 often gets jam-packed during the AM / PM peaks.

 

[Palma]

Rob Ford was talking about a subway on Finch West months ago.

Not that it has meaning ...

It has no meaning just as he tried to convince Scarborough they are not getting the subway along Eglinton in the east and instead are getting LRT. And to think those people and the residents of Finch actual believing they may get a subway. Its a joke. And those councillors who must think the residents they represent are that stupid.

 

[Palma]

Actually, bus ridership is indicative in combination with other factors. Unfortunately, Eglinton has no trip generators along it between Yonge and the airport. The largest is probably, what, Richview Collegiate? There's also huge voids like Eglinton Flats, and vast swaths of single family houses. Since there's so few large trip generators on Eglinton and since tons of the traffic on Eglinton is simply due to it being a rare through-route, you're not going to take a bite out of car traffic with a line there. It'll just be a local feeder line, not some kind of transit miracle.

A

So what trip generators are there on the Bloor line between Kipling and Dufferin (11 stops) which is the same number of stops on the EC from keele to Mt. Pleasant? Lets see single family houses or semi's (same as around Eglinton) and Kent Senior Public School.