Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[nfitz]

I know the cars that Ottawa ordered are...

Still reading through this carefully.

When you say ordered ... do you mean that they have actually ordered them? I'm not seeing any announcements about any further sales in Ontario in Bombardier's financial statements - other than more GO Train passenger cars.

 

[gweed123]

Still reading through this carefully.

When you say ordered ... do you mean that they have actually ordered them? I'm not seeing any announcements about any further sales in Ontario in Bombardier's financial statements - other than more GO Train passenger cars.

Yeah, sorry I mis-spoke. They know the general specs of the cars that they want, but they haven't actually placed an order yet. I'm assuming the purchase will come once the project itself is put out to tender.

 

[gweed123]

Reading this again ... I'm not understanding this comment. The only Flexity vehicles I've seen are those that Vancouver ran on the Olympic line last year. Though those were 2.3-metres wide and 32-metres long (they were Flexity Outlooks for Brussels that were borrowed).

However, the 401 doesn't go all the way to Vancouver ... am I missing something?

I meant that if they did go with Bombardier, presumably they'd be the same model that Metrolinx is ordering (specifically for use on Eglinton). If Ottawa wanted to see how they looked and run, they could just drive to Toronto and see for themselves. Although on second thought the ESLRT will be open the same year as the Ottawa LRT (2019 is going to be a good year for transit!), that comment doesn't make much sense, haha.

 

[gweed123]

According to the EA the stations are being built with a 150-metre station box, consisting of a 60-metre service area (platforms can't be extended here), a 60-metre platform for 2-car trains, and a 30-metre reserved area to extend to 3-car trains in the future (with a walled off area, similar to what was done on the Sheppard line to extend from 4-car to 6-car trains in the future).

Expandable to 3 cars? Wow, that's a pretty low capacity. I wonder if now that the Scarborough section is going to be dumped onto Eglinton as well, if that may necessitate 3-car platforms on opening.

Ottawa is likely going to run 4-car LRTs on launch, with the option to expand to 6-car LRTs (although that likely won't happen until 2031 or later).

 

[nfitz]

If Ottawa wanted to see how they looked and run, they could just drive to Toronto and see for themselves.

LOL ... okay, got you ... I thought you were making a comment that we in Toronto could drive down the 401 to the Bombardier test facility in Millhaven - and I wondered what you knew that I didn't!

Expandable to 3 cars? Wow, that's a pretty low capacity.

The peak point ridership was only projected to be 7,800 in the 2030s (by Metrolinx); I think the estimate in the EA was similar or lower. If they use 2-car trains, and only use 200 per car as the capacity (i.e. non-crush), then you'd need 19.5 trains/hour. So at peak, you could handle this load with a 3-minute headway. With 3-car trains you could do a 4.5-minute headway - which is getting a bit infrequent for rapid-transit system at the peak of rush-hour.

I wonder if now that the Scarborough section is going to be dumped onto Eglinton as well, if that may necessitate 3-car platforms on opening.

Good question. The Scarborough RT in the 2030's was only predicted to be 6,400; so in theory no. But with the faster travel time from Kennedy to Don Mills, then I wouldn't be surprised if they go for 90-metres now (I wouldn't be surprised if they increase the future platform size from 90-metres to 120-metres as well).

 

[GenerationW]

So, what was Trotsky's reasoning? I'm curious. Slower LRTs use less energy per unit time?

One side of the handout has a map comparing Ford's plan (25 km and 217,000 Torontonians served) with the previous plan (52 km and 460,000 served). It's on the TEA website if you're curious.

The other side is filled with basic talking points we've all seen before, though aimed more at the general public rather than transit geeks, such as:

Above ground LRT is
-more comfortable (and has more capacity) than buses
-faster than streetcars
-almost as fast as subways
-cheaper than subways
-able to serve all neighbourhoods

 

[gweed123]

Good question. The Scarborough RT in the 2030's was only predicted to be 6,400; so in theory no. But with the faster travel time from Kennedy to Don Mills, then I wouldn't be surprised if they go for 90-metres now (I wouldn't be surprised if they increase the future platform size from 90-metres to 120-metres as well).

Exactly. I think the Scarborough addition to the line changes the dynamics completely. Whereas before people had the forced choice of either B-D subway or Eglinton LRT, now they have the optional choice of transferring to B-D, or staying where they are and continuing to YUS via Eglinton.

With that 7,800 peak on Eglinton, I bet only some of that number is SRT riders. Maybe 25%? Just for arguments sake. That leaves 5,850 coming from Eglinton itself. Assuming those 1,950 riders (25% of Eglinton) aren't double-counted in this, that means that 4,450 riders are added to the Eglinton numbers from the SRT. That brings it up to 10,300.

 

[SlickFranky]

Exactly. I think the Scarborough addition to the line changes the dynamics completely. Whereas before people had the forced choice of either B-D subway or Eglinton LRT, now they have the optional choice of transferring to B-D, or staying where they are and continuing to YUS via Eglinton.

With that 7,800 peak on Eglinton, I bet only some of that number is SRT riders. Maybe 25%? Just for arguments sake. That leaves 5,850 coming from Eglinton itself. Assuming those 1,950 riders (25% of Eglinton) aren't double-counted in this, that means that 4,450 riders are added to the Eglinton numbers from the SRT. That brings it up to 10,300.

That depends on where the heaviest Eglinton loads will be. I don't recall seeing any detailed info on ridership projections for individual segments. The stretch east of Don Mills was always going to be the least used, so there was already ample space for those SRT riders. Don Mills to Yonge...not sure, don't use that stretch too often. Either way, the DRL should cut them off there.

 

[nfitz]

With that 7,800 peak on Eglinton, I bet only some of that number is SRT riders. Maybe 25%? Just for arguments sake. That leaves 5,850 coming from Eglinton itself. Assuming those 1,950 riders (25% of Eglinton) aren't double-counted in this, that means that 4,450 riders are added to the Eglinton numbers from the SRT. That brings it up to 10,300.

That's a huge assumption. Changes somewhat - but not completely. You are assuming that about 70% of the riders on the SRT would then go on Eglinton. I don't think it would be anywhere near that high. Assuming they all get on the subway now (some would switch to bus to go somewhere), I'd be surprised if 70% of them even get to Bloor-Yonge. I used to commute along Danforth ... many people on the subway train would get off at each stop - particularly Pape and Broadview.

Also, the 2030s model would have many of them switching to the GO rapid train from Kennedy Station direct to Union - running every few minutes by then. And also changing at Pape (or Don Mills/Eglinton) to the DRL (which would not contribute to the peak Eglinton load, which is presumably further west).

 

[drum118]

Wouldn't surprise me if Ottawa used the same type of vehicles ordered by Metrolinx. You can see exactly what you're getting, all you'd have to do is drive down the 401. I think that they used ballpark numbers for this report though, as a number like 222 would have people guessing if they had already picked a vehicle before the project was even out of the planning stages. 200 is a nice round number that doesn't bind them to a specific vehicle, as I would imagine most LRT vehicles would be in and around that same capacity.

Also doesn't surprise me they would be going with Bombardier. The first LRT contract was with Siemens, and they pretty much burned that bridge when they cancelled the plan. That doesn't leave too many other manufacturers to deal with.

Since Siemens is recoverying their money on the botch first contract does not stop them from bidding on the 2nd one.

Depending on how the tender is written for the 2nd try, you may get a few more bidders.

Since there is now a 25% Canadian requirement of LRTs, you may get the same number as contract 1 or less. The bidders will look to see if there is an market beyond this contract in Canada and the US.

Since Siemens, Bombardier and a few off shore manufacturers have plants in the US, it leaves the market for Canada open to them now.

 

[drum118]

I post this in the wrong group some how, but there it is for this line.

The talk at the Metrolinx meeting today, the stations will be 1 km apart and less of them. All the stations location will be review under the plan new EA. Very few stations will see a bus terminal as plan by TTC. I support the reduction of these terminals.

The stations will be built for 3 cars from day one.

Metrolinx does not see the need to convert this LRT into a subway down the road, but it can be if it needs to happen. If it is to become a subway, the existing system will not be shut down for the conversion.

It is still unknown at this time were the east pit will be dug for the TBM’s. The TBM’s are schedule to arrive in June 2012. The Black Creek Pit is schedule for June this year.

The EA to put the surface line underground will be out this fall and completed in 12 months.

Since the Sheppard line LRT’s are dead at this time, the design of the new LRT’s will be delay as well looking at making various changes to them.

The ""FINCH"" ""LRT"" is still in Metrolinx plan and they have no reason to remove it at all contrary to what Ford wants. Since this line does not come on stream until 2018, Metrolinx doesn't have to worry for another 4 years about it at this time.

There is talk the SRT conversion could be up and running before the crosstown line is ready. This line will see every 2nd train stopping at Kennedy while the other continues crosstown. Same will happen for the crosstown LRT’s.

Since the SRT will only have 1 or 2 cars on the line, it will be hard to impossible of sending a 3 car train from Eglinton up the SRT that will only have platforms built for 2 in the first place.

 

[GenerationW]

The talk at the Metrolinx meeting today, the stations will be 1 km apart and less of them. All the stations location will be review under the plan new EA. Very few stations will see a bus terminal as plan by TTC. I support the reduction of these terminals.

These are the proposed stations from the previous plan:

# Black Creek Drive
# Keele Street - 4-bay bus terminal proposed
# Caledonia Road (possible future connection to Barrie GO train line)
# Dufferin Street
# Oakwood Avenue
# Allen Road - Eglinton West Station (connection to Yonge–University–Spadina subway)
# Bathurst Street
# Chaplin Crescent
# Avenue Road
# Yonge Street - Eglinton Station (connection to Yonge–University–Spadina subway)
# Mount Pleasant Road
# Bayview Avenue
# Laird Drive (formerly Brentcliffe Road)
# Leslie Street
# Don Mills Road - 5-bay bus terminal proposed (connection to future Don Mills LRT line)
# Ferrand Drive
# Wynford Drive (connection to future Richmond Hill GO train line)
# Bermondsey Road
# Victoria Park Avenue
# Pharmacy Avenue
# Lebovic Avenue
# Warden Avenue
# Birchmount Road
# Ionview Road
# Kennedy Road

I would assume Ionview, Lebovic, and Ferrand will bite the dust. Oakwood as well? Maybe Pharmacy?? I would also expect that buses along Eglinton will still be needed now that this line is totally underground (as with Sheppard).

Metrolinx does not see the need to convert this LRT into a subway down the road, but it can be if it needs to happen. If it is to become a subway, the existing system will not be shut down for the conversion.

I find that hard to believe.

Speaking of system shutdowns, how long will the SRT be down during construction?

 

[valvenis]

There's no way Oakwood won't have a stop.

Oakwood & Eglinton is one of the busiest intersections on Eglinton.

 

[sixrings]

Yea I would be upset to lose Oakwood... There is a potential development happening there. It may still happen but who would be interested in buying there if there isnt going to be a stop... More importantly now that we are talking about removing stops because of the cost of stations it makes me frusterated with a stop like Black Creek... No one is going to get on or off at that stop. The only thing that is going to be there is a new recreation centre...(and the TTC yards but that doesnt require a actual stop for riders) To me neither justify a stop.. There are no busses going north or south onto black creek so theres nothing to transfer to. It just doesnt make sense. If less stops have to happen it makes more sense that the line goes all the way to Weston where people actually live. That being said Id rather have a few less stops in the east and make it all the way to JANE.... Weston or Black creek will be a very random terminus.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Yea I would be upset to lose Oakwood... There is a potential development happening there. It may still happen but who would be interested in buying there if there isnt going to be a stop... More importantly now that we are talking about removing stops because of the cost of stations it makes me frusterated with a stop like Black Creek... No one is going to get on or off at that stop. The only thing that is going to be there is a new recreation centre...(and the TTC yards but that doesnt require a actual stop for riders) To me neither justify a stop.. There are no busses going north or south onto black creek so theres nothing to transfer to. It just doesnt make sense. If less stops have to happen it makes more sense that the line goes all the way to Weston where people actually live. That being said Id rather have a few less stops in the east and make it all the way to JANE.... Weston or Black creek will be a very random terminus.

The proposed Black Creek station has a No Frills at the south-west corner, a proposed community centre at the south-east corner, the proposed light rail yard at the north-west corner, and a snow-melting dump at the north-east corner. It is the flood plain for the Black Creek, running along the east side of the valley. Why put an underground station there. Makes better sense to bridge Black Creek Drive (to appease Rob Ford's phobia) and go into an underground station at Weston Road. Then they can have connection to the GO Train corridor and allow better access for the Mt. Dennis residences in the neighbourhood. If they want to save some money on building stations, they can do so by forgetting about a Black Creek station.