Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[steveintoronto]

I think that has less to do with the route and more to do with the current rolling stock and frequencies, and lack of stations like the aforementioned.

And flooding of the southern section. If that section were only used for peak express to Union, it wouldn't be a problem, the northern end of the line could be RER single decker emu, twin tracked, and continuing south into tunnel to be the DRL. The western section from Osgoode could then be extended to the Georgetown Corridor, daylight, and then run north to Bramalea. Not only would this be a direct ride to the core, it would also relieve load congestion on Union as well as not involve the subway in any way save to relieve it, and allow it to remain as-is other than small tweaks.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

And flooding of the southern section. If that section were only used for peak express to Union, it wouldn't be a problem, the northern end of the line could be RER single decker emu, twin tracked, and continuing south into tunnel to be the DRL. The western section from Osgoode could then be extended to the Georgetown Corridor, daylight, and then run north to Bramalea. Not only would this be a direct ride to the core, it would also relieve load congestion on Union as well as not involve the subway in any way save to relieve it, and allow it to remain as-is other than small tweaks.

I'd much rather put the Relief Line on the Richmond Hill GO Corridor north of Lawrence and send it up to Richmond Hill, and sacrifice the GO line. If this is about relieving the Yonge line and providing fast and frequent service after all.

 

[SaugeenJunction]

Not sure if this is new but Metrolinx shared this walkthrough of Kennedy Station

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=549061702190910

 

[syn]

Not sure if this is new but Metrolinx shared this walkthrough of Kennedy Station

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=549061702190910

Looks very 'second class'.

 

[steveintoronto]

I'd much rather put the Relief Line on the Richmond Hill GO Corridor north of Lawrence and send it up to Richmond Hill, and sacrifice the GO line. If this is about relieving the Yonge line and providing fast and frequent service after all.

But the Relief Line as being proposed couldn't handle the volume necessary, or if it did, it would dump it on the subway still, which is exactly what's trying to be avoided.

If this is about relieving the Yonge line and providing fast and frequent service after all

Then bypass the subway altogether instead of band-aid solutions.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Once again Metrolinx posts a years old video .. .

Now if they introduced a viewable 3D model of many stations that anyone can view online, then that would be cool.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Not sure if this is new but Metrolinx shared this walkthrough of Kennedy Station

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=549061702190910

Once again Metrolinx posts a years old video .. .

Now if they introduced a viewable 3D model of many stations that anyone can view online, then that would be cool.

I just wish they would actually show details people want to see like for example will the LRT have asperete fare line from the subway sation

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

But the Relief Line as being proposed couldn't handle the volume necessary, or if it did, it would dump it on the subway still, which is exactly what's trying to be avoided.
Then bypass the subway altogether instead of band-aid solutions.

What makes you say that? The Relief Line is being built as a subway with ATC. The Yonge Line once ATC is implemented can handle 36,000pphd. The Relief Line if built to Sheppard is only projected to be 19,200 pphd in 2031. That is plenty of room for growth.

If we threw the Relief Line on the RH-GO corridor and sent the trains up to Richmond Hill, there are two things that go in our favour: (1) The Relief Line provides full relief to the Yonge Line by accepting downtown-bound York Region riders, freeing up capacity further down the line; (2) The trip actually will save passengers time compared to the Yonge Line as the Relief Line would have higher operating speeds between Richmond Hill and Pape (and less stations to slow down).

The band-aid solution is upgrading the RH-GO line. That Line is utterly inadequate for handling the passenger volumes needed (not to mention actually out of the way of where the demand is) without very expensive upgrades that would involve a completely new route between Lawrence and Union Station.

Remember, it is not necessarily the technology that is most important but route design. While yes, commuter rail like GO is more adequate for serving the suburbs in general, by putting the Relief Line on the RH-GO corridor with minimal stops, you would allow it to operate at very high speeds, likely the highest in the entire system, between Lawrence and Richmond Hill.

 

[smallspy]

If we threw the Relief Line on the RH-GO corridor and sent the trains up to Richmond Hill, there are two things that go in our favour: (1) The Relief Line provides full relief to the Yonge Line by accepting downtown-bound York Region riders, freeing up capacity further down the line; (2) The trip actually will save passengers time compared to the Yonge Line as the Relief Line would have higher operating speeds between Richmond Hill and Pape (and less stations to slow down).

Of course, the converse of that is that the preliminary ridership projections for the various routes have the ridership increasing the further away you get from Yonge. The Bala Sub comes back and almost reaches Yonge at Highway 7.

And then there's the fact that there is no established ridership patterns on the Bala Sub - people are simply using it as a bridge route to get from one end to the other. Running the DRL up Don Mills or Victoria Park would not just intercept people heading downtown, but also take advantage of the existing on-line ridership patterns as well.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Of course, the converse of that is that the preliminary ridership projections for the various routes have the ridership increasing the further away you get from Yonge. The Bala Sub comes back and almost reaches Yonge at Highway 7.

And then there's the fact that there is no established ridership patterns on the Bala Sub - people are simply using it as a bridge route to get from one end to the other. Running the DRL up Don Mills or Victoria Park would not just intercept people heading downtown, but also take advantage of the existing on-line ridership patterns as well.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

I like to think of it almost reaching Yonge at Highway 7 to be a feature, not a bug. The ridership in York Region is coming down on Yonge Street and it will totally overwhelm the Yonge Line.

A Bala Sub routing would still intercept bus routes at York Mills/Ellesmere, Sheppard East, Finch East and Steeles East, which are heading to the Yonge Line as we speak.

But you do have a point, and that is why my preferred routing is actually up Don Mills (which will provide a cleaner interchange at Sheppard too) and crossing to Leslie and the RH-GO corridor via the Finch Hydro Corridor. ( and turn the rest of the RH-GO corridor south of Finch to Toronto's first cycling super highway. )

 

[micheal_can]

For everyone suggesting using the Bala sub for the DRL, stop, just, please stop. It is the mainline in for CN from the west.

That would be akin to suggesting that we turn the 400 into a new LRT.

 

[Leo_Chan]

For everyone suggesting using the Bala sub for the DRL, stop, just, please stop. It is the mainline in for CN from the west.

That would be akin to suggesting that we turn the 400 into a new LRT.

This thread is getting a bit off topic, but I agree with you on this. Using the Richmond Hill Line for the Relief Line North has a very low possibility of happening, even though it is identified as a potential corridor on the long list of corridors. At this time, we should wait a few more months or years until they release their short list of corridors to see if they find it attractive.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

For everyone suggesting using the Bala sub for the DRL, stop, just, please stop. It is the mainline in for CN from the west.

Unless it was tunnelled.

 

[44 North]

For everyone suggesting using the Bala sub for the DRL, stop, just, please stop. It is the mainline in for CN from the west.

That would be akin to suggesting that we turn the 400 into a new LRT.

Yeah it's a bit annoying. Not to mention it's based on the rather callous and silly assumption that we'll simply shutter a 4km section of long-existing commuter rail, shutter 8km of new track and a brand new station (gormely), and stop work on Bloomington which is quite far along in construction. Sort of gas plant-ish. I get upgrading a commuter rail line to subway standards. Not tossing a rail line aside. This resulting in, what, two subway lines to an outer suburban area all the while we have swaths of the real city dying for major upgrades to transit or SSE getting only one station. Doesn't add up.

 

[steveintoronto]

That is plenty of room for growth.

For where? Not for *circumventing the load on the present subway it was never designed for*. Anyone thinking extending the present groaning yesterday's subway further out to the nether regions in lieu of regional rail is a good idea is a supporter of Doug Ford. It was never meant to handle that, and it never will as is. Extensions are *exacerbating the very reason touted for the Pape south relief case exists in the first place*. Eglinton Crosstown does the opposite, albeit it too will further load legs of the present subway Line 1. That's something to cater for, and will again max out the present groaning subway infrastructure not designed for serving the regions.

Not to mention it's based on the rather callous and silly assumption that we'll simply shutter a 4km section of long-existing commuter rail, shutter 8km of new track and a brand new station (gormely), and stop work on Bloomington which is quite far along in construction. Sort of gas plant-ish. I get upgrading a commuter rail line to subway standards. Not tossing a rail line aside. This resulting in, what, two subway lines to an outer suburban area all the while we have swaths of the real city dying for major upgrades to transit or SSE getting only one station. Doesn't add up.

It doesn't "add up" because like many Toronto centric persons, you miss the bigger picture as is being done in many world leading cities.

You *feed* that traffic into the Relief Line tunnel. The whole Bala line *remains*. What is now extant below Don Mills becomes a direct express peak service to Union below Don Mills as it now is and for any other existing heavy rail needs. The DD stock won't fit in a 6.5 metre bore. Single decker emu that runs on standard UIC height 25 kV AC catenary can and does! In Toronto's case, I recommend a slightly larger bore, but Crossrail and other European cities do it in a bore size now standard for later Toronto subway tunnels. Paris even does DD in that size bore! Sydney slightly larger IIRC.

South of Don Mills, the *RER electric single decker stock* a la Crossrail and a number of other European cities, using *off the shelf Bombardier and competitor tried and trued high platform stock* is run in tunnel to the core of Toronto and eventually looped back out the west end to the Georgetown Corridor, relieving the subway, relieving Union Station, and much better serving the core with a direct *one seat* ride to the burbs without even needing to use the subway in any shape or form. The diesel and DD stock continues to run where it now does, and the line north of Don Mills is shared with RER.

This type of mixed stock, alternate destination exists in New York as well as many European and Asian cities. Why it's so abstract to Torontonians is symptomatic of...creating their own conundrums by thinking small.

"Subways, subways, subways". He isn't talking LRT let alone RER in tunnel...He's talking the past.