Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[In4matt]

Does any one know if the Crosstown will be POP? I think they should just have fare gates that accept Presto (and one time tokens/tickets) with automatic gates that close if you don't pay (I think this is what Vancouver is adding to the skytrain). I would be disappointed if Presto isn't the most used method of payment by the time this line is open.

 

[rbt]

Isn't that a little hard to believe?

Lets do this from the other side. Assume that rush periods offset 1am periods and lets do a calculation of riders on a train during the afternoon.

A train takes about 1 hour to complete a Finch to Downsview run at 2pm. Exactly one hour is a convenient time and good enough for an approximation. Off-peak loading standard is about 400 people per train and some level of churn will occur. In fact, 100% churn, at a minimum, occurs during the downtown section.

Lets assume 300 people between Finch and Union with 30% churn (some get off an Eglinton and others get on, etc); so 390 people in total. Ignore Bloor because it is paid for (transfer from another manned subway system).

Lets take 200 out of downtown to Downsview with 20% churn (240 people).

So, 630 people over an hour contribute a portion of their fare to cover the driver and doorman. Driver + Doorman cost $100 per hour between the two of them. ($30 take home and $20 in employee overhead)

In the middle of the afternoon on a train with empty seats going into and out of downtown, we get 16 cents.

Rush hour is closer to 1800 people on the train at any point during its trip, or 5.5 cents for driver + doorman.

1am is probably closer to 200 people on the train at any point during its trip, or 50 cents per passenger for driver + doorman. Lots more rush-hour trains than midnight trains though (over double) so I expect it balances out to something similar to the afternoon.

So I get 12 cents from one direction and about 16 cents from the other.

I think it is fare to say the upper limit (given wide margins for error in my estimates from selecting convenient numbers) it is between 6 and 25 cents per passenger and probably somewhere in the middle (12 to 16).

Higher churn or capacity per train pushes the value down. Lower churn or reduced passenger count per train pushes it up. Line delays push significantly higher. The Bloor dwell time reduction initiative pushes it lower as do Toronto Rockets coming online. So, SRT and Sheppard will be higher but Bloor line has higher churn than Yonge/Spadina so it may be lower.


You can tease a real number from the stats as they give actual train counts, actual running times, and approximate passenger counts for all lines. Add in a spare ratio for staff (breaks, sickness, etc.) and use a reasonable hourly salary (65,000/year without overtime) and overhead (2/3rds hourly wage).

Significant overtime for Employee A to reach $120,000/year means employee Z doesn't exist.

I'm pretty happy with my thumbsuck estimate though so I will not be doing this.

 

[Still Waters]

Does any one know if the Crosstown will be POP?

Yes, it will be. And I believe that the expectation is that Presto will be the primary method of fare collection on this line by the time it opens. It was never intended to have ticket collectors in any of the stations on the Crosstown and I think that still remains the intention now that the whole line is underground. Not sure whether actual fare gates will be there on opening day or whether they will be added later if needed (a la Sky Train).

 

[W. K. Lis]

The escalators in the Ossington subway station are out of service (see this link). Makes this station inaccessible to some seniors and handicapped. Putting all the Eglinton Crosstown LRT stations underground means the same problems can occur with those stations. If they were stops at the surface they would be easier to be accessible for all at all times.

 

[gweed123]

The escalators in the Ossington subway station are out of service (see this link). Makes this station inaccessible to some seniors and handicapped. Putting all the Eglinton Crosstown LRT stations underground means the same problems can occur with those stations. If they were stops at the surface they would be easier to be accessible for all at all times.

Wow, that's a pretty weak argument for surface stations. Hey, you know when surface stations are inaccessible to people in wheelchairs? When it's a snowstorm, and the plow on the cross street just went by and left a mountain of snow in front of the entrance to the platform. I guess we should stop building surface stations too...

 

[nfitz]

I fail to understand why we are spending almost a $billion to make the subway stations accessible, and yet we put only one elevator for each platform - particularly for important interchange stations.

If accessibility is important, there should be 2 elevators. If it isn't important, don't spend the $$$.

 

[accura407]

Yes, it will be. And I believe that the expectation is that Presto will be the primary method of fare collection on this line by the time it opens. It was never intended to have ticket collectors in any of the stations on the Crosstown and I think that still remains the intention now that the whole line is underground. Not sure whether actual fare gates will be there on opening day or whether they will be added later if needed (a la Sky Train).

And this "Vancouver Model" (Also found in Calgary, Edmonton, [Future] Ottawa, Many US Cities) should be precisely what we should follow for all new expansions...

But i say "Vancouver Model" because the complete automation of the trains itself is also equally necessary. If a whole skytrain network can be run without a single human being then we in Toronto should AT LEAST start off by doing this on ONE brand new grade seperated line!

 

[gweed123]

I fail to understand why we are spending almost a $billion to make the subway stations accessible, and yet we put only one elevator for each platform - particularly for important interchange stations.

If accessibility is important, there should be 2 elevators. If it isn't important, don't spend the $$$.

I think there's a difference between new stations designed with accessibility in mind, and older stations. I can sort of understand why upgrading older stations with two elevators would be even more of an expense, especially when a lot of stations have none. I'd rather have all stations with at least one, than some with two and some with none.

Do the stations on the Sheppard line have 1 elevator or two?

 

[Justin10000]

Wow, that's a pretty weak argument for surface stations. Hey, you know when surface stations are inaccessible to people in wheelchairs? When it's a snowstorm, and the plow on the cross street just went by and left a mountain of snow in front of the entrance to the platform. I guess we should stop building surface stations too...

I have seen mountains of snow in front of subway entrances. Your argument is pretty weak too.

Surface stations ARE easier to be accessible then subway stations. No elevator, or escalator required to reach the platform, just cross a few lanes.

 

[gweed123]

I have seen mountains of snow in front of subway entrances. Your argument is pretty weak too.

Surface stations ARE easier to be accessible then subway stations. No elevator, or escalator required to reach the platform, just cross a few lanes.

I was simply showing that barriers to accessibility can pop up anywhere. I was trying to rebuttle the implication that we shouldn't build underground stations because the elevators might break down.

 

[sixrings]

I would think shovelling snow on surface platforms would be cheaper and easier then installing elevators for either elevated rail and underground rail. This was one of the biggest pro for TC. The cost Vs underground or elevated and the maintenance. The stop spacing could have been changed to appear a little more rapid but the actual design istself minus the Sheppard transfer seemed pretty good. I hope TC gets ressurected with tweeks.

 

[nfitz]

Do the stations on the Sheppard line have 1 elevator or two?

One I believe ... as with Spadina. Perhaps there are stations that are exceptions ...

 

[accura407]

I would think shovelling snow on surface platforms would be cheaper and easier then installing elevators for either elevated rail and underground rail. This was one of the biggest pro for TC. The cost Vs underground or elevated and the maintenance. The stop spacing could have been changed to appear a little more rapid but the actual design istself minus the Sheppard transfer seemed pretty good. I hope TC gets ressurected with tweeks.

I would only support Transit City if it was built "Calgary Style" with a large median, crossing arms, actual 'stations', and suburban subway distances (850m+). Refer to 36 St NE in Calgary for a template.

TTC's version of transit city is a complete joke and is just an upgraded fancy streetcar. If anything, TTC abuses a perfectly amazing transportation mode, LRT, and uses 1/15th of it with no benefit.

Luckily, 905 systems like the Hurontario LRT will be more similar to true LRT systems in use in North America...

 

[gweed123]

I would only support Transit City if it was built "Calgary Style" with a large median, crossing arms, actual 'stations', and suburban subway distances (850m+). Refer to 36 St NE in Calgary for a template.

TTC's version of transit city is a complete joke and is just an upgraded fancy streetcar. If anything, TTC abuses a perfectly amazing transportation mode, LRT, and uses 1/15th of it with no benefit.

Luckily, 905 systems like the Hurontario LRT will be more similar to true LRT systems in use in North America...

The more and more I think about it, the more I feel that municipal transit expansion at this point should take a back seat to the electrification of the GO network. The $950 million for the SELRT and the $1.4 billion for the FWLRT could have gone much further if it was put towards electrification. Electrified GO lines running 15 minute headways off peak and 5 minute headways on peak would do way more for Toronto (and the GTA as a whole), then a few supplementary LRT lines would.

The only LRT/BRT projects that should remain on the funding block for the next 10 years are the Eglinton-Scarborough LRT, the Hurontario LRT, the Mississauga Transitway, the Highway 2 Durham BRT, and the B-Line LRT in Hamilton.

Aside from those, all other capital transit funds should go to the electrification of the GO network. Once that is fully played out, we can see how much the dynamics have shifted away from local transit and onto express rail, and how much demand there still is for local transit. The trip patterns may change significantly, and as a result realignment of the other planned lines may be in order. For example, I think that if Union had all the electrifed GO lines feeding it, that having the DRL also go through Union may be a bit of overkill.

I do want to stress however that I don't think funding should be pulled from Eglinton in order to help facilitate the electrification of the GO network. That money belongs on Eglinton. I'm just talking about future funding here.

 

[sixrings]

Id like tc with a few tweeks like the sheppard transfer. Then electrify the richmond hill, the barrie, and the brampton line. By the way switch the richmond hill line with the cn line so there can be a easier access station at leslie and eglinton. Make all these lines 15 mins apart and add stations where ever each line connects with eglinton bloor or danforth. Then make the GO a added dollar if you have a metropass. That should make both a local and regional network.