Justin10000
Banned
And how do you expect subway trains to fit into the SRT ROW? Construction is about to begin, why go through another EA process just to change a technology that was chosen years ago?
Last edited:
|
|
|
And how do you expect subway trains to fit into the SRT ROW? Construction is about to begin, why go through another EA process just to change a technology that was chosen years ago?
ssiguy2
Senior Member
I actually called the Eglinton LRT project office and I asked why they using LRT instead of Metro, SkyTrain, or Monorail. She was very polite and pleasant and said, afetr a noticeable pause, that it was because eventually the line could be extended using at grade ROW. I then mentioned that Metrolinx has stated that the line would be automated so how could it have at grade and automation at the same time? She didn't know.
I then asked if the line was to be automated why they didn't just upgrade the current SkyTrain and then extend it east. She said it was considered but deemed not worth the expense but I said upgrading a line is surely less expensive than totally ripping up all the tracks and building new ones and she said wasn't sure if it was cheaper. I then asked how much of the $8.2 billion was being used for the transfer of the SkyTrain to LRT on the current SRT and she said she didn't know. I asked her why they were burying it east of Don Mills and she said that Ford would not allow at grade down Eglinton but then I asked why it wasn't elevated and she hummed and hayed and again wasn't sure. I said that of all 4 potential technologies LRT was going to be the most expensive as the tunneling costs were the same but LRT had the added expense of building the overhead power supply and she AGREED!
I asked her about a potential monorail while still using a tunnel from Black Creed to Don Mills to Black Creek but elevating the line from DM to Kennedy as Monorail is the cheapest and fastest to build of all elevated systems and she said that she didn't know anything about Monorails and said she didn't think Monorails had even been considered.
She actually said that she always thought Monorails were more for zoos and amuzement parks so I referred her to the new Rio Monorail proposal Youtube presentation and the the large systems being built around the world and she said she will take a look at the systems as she seemed very surprised that cities were even considering Monorails much less building them.
She also mentioned that the line will be built to accomodate 3 LRT trains {about 100 meters} but probably won't be built that way to begin with as they will only run 2 car trains and build the stations for easy transfer and ability to lengthen then in the future.
She was very pleasant but I was very shocked at just how little she seemed to know and how little thought seems to have been put into this line. I walked away with the impression that this was a line that was more drawn on a map than any real consideration of what the line should be, technology be used, and where it was headed.
Her last comment was probably the most telling.........."atleast SOMETHING is finally going to get built".
I then asked if the line was to be automated why they didn't just upgrade the current SkyTrain and then extend it east. She said it was considered but deemed not worth the expense but I said upgrading a line is surely less expensive than totally ripping up all the tracks and building new ones and she said wasn't sure if it was cheaper. I then asked how much of the $8.2 billion was being used for the transfer of the SkyTrain to LRT on the current SRT and she said she didn't know. I asked her why they were burying it east of Don Mills and she said that Ford would not allow at grade down Eglinton but then I asked why it wasn't elevated and she hummed and hayed and again wasn't sure. I said that of all 4 potential technologies LRT was going to be the most expensive as the tunneling costs were the same but LRT had the added expense of building the overhead power supply and she AGREED!
I asked her about a potential monorail while still using a tunnel from Black Creed to Don Mills to Black Creek but elevating the line from DM to Kennedy as Monorail is the cheapest and fastest to build of all elevated systems and she said that she didn't know anything about Monorails and said she didn't think Monorails had even been considered.
She actually said that she always thought Monorails were more for zoos and amuzement parks so I referred her to the new Rio Monorail proposal Youtube presentation and the the large systems being built around the world and she said she will take a look at the systems as she seemed very surprised that cities were even considering Monorails much less building them.
She also mentioned that the line will be built to accomodate 3 LRT trains {about 100 meters} but probably won't be built that way to begin with as they will only run 2 car trains and build the stations for easy transfer and ability to lengthen then in the future.
She was very pleasant but I was very shocked at just how little she seemed to know and how little thought seems to have been put into this line. I walked away with the impression that this was a line that was more drawn on a map than any real consideration of what the line should be, technology be used, and where it was headed.
Her last comment was probably the most telling.........."atleast SOMETHING is finally going to get built".
jje1000
Senior Member
I think that Metrolinx is hoping that if Ford doesn't return in 2014, they can return to an at-grade option for the outer stretches of the Eglinton line.
Doesn't ICTS track cost more than LRT track?
Ford pushed the line underground, dramatically increasing the costs. Ford has also stated that he doesn't want elevated lines. I blame Metrolinx for not pushing the option, though.
I think that's the sentiment of most people on Eglinton. Seeing two transit plans cancelled/almost cancelled within twenty years- at least something is being done now.
rbt
Senior Member
Straight forward.
Driver in tram from Pearson to first station in tunnel. Driver flips the "auto" switch, gets out, tram continues down the tunnel. Driver takes bathroom break and crosses platform waiting for their scheduled tram to arrive. They get in, turn off the "auto" switch, and drive the tram to Pearson on the surface portion.
For advance operation, you can short-turn 2 out or 3 trams at the tunnel entrance to have 6 minute frequencies on the surface (manually operated) and 2 minute frequencies in the tunnel.
Justin10000
Banned
I doubt the trains are going to be driverless in the tunnel.
rbt
Senior Member
Perhaps, but that is unrelated to them running on the surface. Eglinton trains will be long enough I could see them having 2 staff on the surface (driver + door man) and 1 staff underground (door man).
Our subway trains will always have one staff on board when automated just as Montreal's continue to despite having been automated a long time ago.
ssiguy2
Senior Member
Having someone on board despite being is automated is an example of why the TTC's operating costs are so high.
SkyTrain tracks are indeed more expensive than regular rail but would still be sizeably less that building rail and the overhead power supply for 20km including tunneling large enough tunnels to accomodate the higher heights of the trains required. Also by just using a complete SkyTrain from Black Creek to STC would not require building a brand new LRT maintence, storage, and operational centre as these cannot use the same centres as the new legacy streetcars centre as they are different gauge.
SkyTrain tracks are indeed more expensive than regular rail but would still be sizeably less that building rail and the overhead power supply for 20km including tunneling large enough tunnels to accomodate the higher heights of the trains required. Also by just using a complete SkyTrain from Black Creek to STC would not require building a brand new LRT maintence, storage, and operational centre as these cannot use the same centres as the new legacy streetcars centre as they are different gauge.
accura407
Car is King
But that is the question...? Why? Vancouver has been operating 100% of their metro system without any drivers for 25 years and they don't have any problems...
Why are we paying premium $$ for an underground segregated alignment with automated driverless trains...to then pay an overpriced laborer on a train?
Am I the only one that see the insanity in this?
rbt
Senior Member
Safety is the usual answer mentioned.
TTC has found having full time medical response crews in some stations has reduced costs by decreasing service outage time so there is evidence that some level of staffing is useful. Obviously, their ideal job description and skillset may be different than what we have today.
It allows for some flexibility in handling signal failure, medical emergencies, security emergencies (people on the track: I've witnessed this a couple of times) too.
Eliminating 180 staff (the doorman as the driver position will be eliminated) may not be a cost savings if the average service outage increases by 5 minutes.
A fun game in Vancouver is to toss a cardboard box into the door of an empty train at a low usage station. It can take 30 minutes for the jam to be cleared by staff if you do it at the right station. Likely one of the reasons they will be getting fare-gates and manning most stations.
Last edited:
Platform 27
Active Member
Would unstaffed *trains* but staffed *platforms* be a better solution? Having a customer service presence out and about interacting with the pubic at platform level is far more useful in terms of answering questions and ensuring inexperienced travelers get on the right train, and if having manually-triggered door closure was still seen as an asset, it could be done using some sort of handheld gismo. If there's a medical incident on a train, 99% of the time it's going to at least go as far as the next platform, anyway.
Northern Magus
Active Member
The London Underground more or less does both: staffed trains and staffed platforms. Essentially the platform guard takes the place of the TTC's in-train guard and signals the driver to let him know it's safe to close the doors.
Justin10000
Banned
Really? I thought the train driver opened and closed the doors, and watched the platform with the help of CCTV?
ssiguy2
Senior Member
The SkyTrain almost never has any problems............it's just an excuse the unions use keep as many staff as they can.
Justin10000
Banned
pppppfffffffffffftttttttttttttttt......
Immature, I know. But the Skytrain has it's problems...Blaming the Unions is a pretty weak excuse.
Rainforest
Senior Member
Back in 2008-2009, TTC studied options for the Scarborough RT upgrade and extension to Malvern Centre. They costed both the SkyTrain / ICTS option and the fully grade-separate LRT option. The project would include a variety of segments:
1) Kennedy Stn to McCowan: upgraded / converted existing guideway
2) McCowan to Progress / Milner: new elevated line
3) Progress / Milner to Malvern: tunneled
The estimated costs for SkyTrain / ICTS and for LRT came very close (actually, ICTS a tad more expensive).
Therefore, I doubt the Eglinton as ICTS would be cheaper than Eglinton as LRT.
The existing Bellamy yard probably can't handle the greatly increased number of trains needed to operate the whole SRT-Eglinton line.