Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[Amare]

I saw that when the report was released. I don't understand that at all. How could they manage to negotiate that new transit infrastructure to be built by the city would be owned by Metrolinx? Unbelievable. They're really tying to screw us.

The only thing, is that it was really John Tory that put Toronto on the hook for paying all this unnecessary money that province never asked the city to contribute to. Metrolinx was willing to build the Crosstown West extension once funds became available, and had that been the case they would have been on the hook for the capital costs associated with the project. It was Tory who foolishly put his hand up and offered to pay for the capital costs, and ultimately allowing Metrolinx to have ownership over the extension, while putting Toronto on the hook for all operational costs.

Like I said before, Tory is the gift that keeps on giving for the province: he offers to pay for transit that the province already previously committed to fund in full, while saddling Toronto with unnecessary costs.

 

[Adjei]

The only thing, is that it was really John Tory that put Toronto on the hook for paying all this unnecessary money that province never asked the city to contribute to. Metrolinx was willing to build the Crosstown West extension once funds became available, and had that been the case they would have been on the hook for the capital costs associated with the project. It was Tory who foolishly put his hand up and offered to pay for the capital costs, and ultimately allowing Metrolinx to have ownership over the extension, while putting Toronto on the hook for all operational costs.

Like I said before, Tory is the gift that keeps on giving for the province: he offers to pay for transit that the province already previously committed to fund in full, while saddling Toronto with unnecessary costs.

The guy has invested so much political capital in SmartTrack that he will do whatever is necessary to make it look like it's a success.

 

[Forgotten]

Where are the usual suspect Tory fans? Tell us about his brilliant negotiational acumen on his ScamTrack file! Tell us about his backroom dealings with Liberal squids whom are doing a hatchet job on the M1B! I don't see the poms poms...

 

[Steve X]

What really brothers me is having TO put money in Metrolinx' pot for transit. For Eglinton West, would TO even have a choice for a certain contractor or have TTC do some of the jobs in house or do TO have to pay ML whatever they decide with P3's. Probably better off with a P3 after all the delays with TYSSE but it would be nice if they have a choice for how the money is spent.

With ML having ownership over Eg West could mean one day Queen's Park decides to terminate TTC operations on the line and contract their own service with a different fare structure. TO is also on the hook for day to day maintenance for the line. I wonder if that translates to having to do emergency track work at TTC's expense. Furthermore, when the rails are at the end of their useful period, who's going pay to replace them. They might last only 10-15 years like how most of the Spadina streetcar tracks are worn out and replaced in the past few years. Does the city have to pay again for something that ML owns?

Sure ML should get the money from city hall to ensure that it survives the 2018 municipal elections but it leaves TO with absolutely no say to future LRT lines and ST stations. Furthermore, TO is on the hook for all the past GO Transit debt for system repairs that didn't benefit 99% of Torontoians. This can also open up to more money TO will have to pay for fare integration that benefits many 905ers. We still don't know what fare system will ST use.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Metrolinx was willing to build the Crosstown West extension once funds became available

Do you genuinely believes funds would become available anytime in the reasonably near future?

 

[salsa]

I saw that when the report was released. I don't understand that at all. How could they manage to negotiate that new transit infrastructure to be built by the city would be owned by Metrolinx? Unbelievable. They're really tying to screw us.

Toronto, don't say you weren't warned about SmartTrack.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Will Torontonians lean their lesson? Nope.

 

[rbt]

What really brothers me is having TO put money in Metrolinx' pot for transit. For Eglinton West, would TO even have a choice for a certain contractor or have TTC do some of the jobs in house or do TO have to pay ML whatever they decide with P3's. Probably better off with a P3 after all the delays with TYSSE but it would be nice if they have a choice for how the money is spent.

Choice almost always comes with responsibility; specifically the responsibility to cover any additional unexpected costs.

If the city gets a choice in vendor, then the city will be responsible to any additional fees if that vendor doesn't work out for whatever reason (massive strike, acts of god, new legislation that impacts construction technique, etc.). There are plenty of reasons why even a fixed-price P3 contract might increase in cost (incorrect specification or change in design being the big one).

Honestly, it's better to have Metrolinx decide the vendor and take responsibility for any unexpected costs.

 

[muller877]

TO is on the hook for all the past GO Transit debt for system repairs that didn't benefit 99% of Torontoians. .

Toronto receives the benefit of a huge commercial and retail tax base because of GO. So we have received a huge benefit (in the form of wads of cash from each office tower in the financial district). Does it not make sense that we have to figure out how to get these workers downtown so we can collect the taxes on the towers?

Or would you suggest taxation without services (we already have taxation without representation)

Think of it in another way. If GO stopped delivering 100,000+ people per day to the downtown core we would have to fund at least 1 new subway (probably 2) to meet the morning and afternoon rush. Even funding 1/3 of each of these lines (capex and opex) would be a lot lower than the GO funding.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Toronto receives the benefit of a huge commercial and retail tax base because of GO. So we have received a huge benefit (in the form of wads of cash from each office tower in the financial district). Does it not make sense that we have to figure out how to get these workers downtown so we can collect the taxes on the towers?

I've heard the argument made that GO Transit, including RER, subsidizes and encourages sprawl, which hurts the City of Toronto and our tax base, in addition to all other various negative impacts of sprawl. I don't know if I agree with that, but it's not as easy as no GO Transit = 100,000 less workers downtown. For all we know, those 100,000 might've chosen to relocate somewhere in the City of Toronto.

 

[rbt]

I've heard the argument made that GO Transit, including RER, subsidizes and encourages sprawl, which hurts the City of Toronto and our tax base, in addition to all other various negative impacts of sprawl. I don't know if I agree with that, but it's not as easy as no GO Transit = 100,000 less workers downtown. For all we know, those 100,000 might've chosen to relocate somewhere in the City of Toronto.

The true answer will be somewhere in between.

Yes, some residents would choose to live in the city to continue working in the city. It's also true that some businesses would choose to relocate outside the downtown area (particularly the ones that recently moved into the core from suburban highway accessible locations). I wouldn't be surprised if RER was a net gain; where commercial revenue - expenses is larger than the residential revenue - expenses.

One thing we do know is that without GO Transit (and Union Station) the Financial District and South Core probably wouldn't be located where they are today. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if this alternative-universe GTA centered around Yonge & Bloor with Yorkville being almost entirely office buildings.

 

[muller877]

I've heard the argument made that GO Transit, including RER, subsidizes and encourages sprawl, which hurts the City of Toronto and our tax base, in addition to all other various negative impacts of sprawl. I don't know if I agree with that, but it's not as easy as no GO Transit = 100,000 less workers downtown. For all we know, those 100,000 might've chosen to relocate somewhere in the City of Toronto.

More likely that the commercial buildings would be built outside the city core in office parks (e.g. just south of the airport in 'Sauga). Which would be even worse for transit.

 

[Steve X]

Toronto receives the benefit of a huge commercial and retail tax base because of GO. So we have received a huge benefit (in the form of wads of cash from each office tower in the financial district). Does it not make sense that we have to figure out how to get these workers downtown so we can collect the taxes on the towers?

Or would you suggest taxation without services (we already have taxation without representation)

Think of it in another way. If GO stopped delivering 100,000+ people per day to the downtown core we would have to fund at least 1 new subway (probably 2) to meet the morning and afternoon rush. Even funding 1/3 of each of these lines (capex and opex) would be a lot lower than the GO funding.

It could help diversify commercial builds around the city without all the GO Train traffic to single downtown core. Yes having towers downtown helps Toronto's economy but it also fills all the subway trains and city sidewalks that TO is having trouble keeping up.

I'm not saying TO core shouldn't be developed but a slower development pace and spreading development to other parts of the city would help our transit system to keep up. Mississauga, STC and North York Centre could grow more without GO Train's existence at Union.

 

[Tuscani01]

Traffic on Don Mills has been shifted East in advance of construction of Science Centre Station. Traffic is an absolute disaster. The HOV lanes have also been removed from the construction zone, so buses are stuck in the same traffic.

 

[Steve X]

Traffic on Don Mills has been shifted East in advance of construction of Science Centre Station. Traffic is an absolute disaster. The HOV lanes have also been removed from the construction zone, so buses are stuck in the same traffic.

It will be worst when they start surface track construction with the entire eg east cut to single lanes. It would be interesting to see how they stage it.