Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[TheTigerMaster]

Something I noticed about the ridership projections for Crosstown East and West is that East is projected to have about 43,000 riders per day, while West is projected to have 60 to 70,000 riders. This doesn't really make sense to me, as:
- Crosstown East has much higher peak ridership
- There's more development along Eglinton East
- There's been far more bus ridership coming into Kennedy, than there is coming into the Mt. Dennis corridor.

Any ideas?

 

[A Torontonian Now]

African or European? Laden or unladen? ;-)

Yeah, this slide got some furrowed brows at the PIC. ML did a lot better on the Davenport diamond project to explain this..... the reference point of a truck at 15m is relevant, since the issue was residents (who are at some greater distance) worried that it would make traffic noise on Eglinton greater.

- PaulView attachment 77841

- Paul

Now the matter is even more confused. The rustling leaves which were compared to the volume of a quack (20 dBA) were significantly louder than the rustling leaves which are being compared to the volume of a conversation at 1 m (10 dBA). Do I trust therefore that a quack and a conversation at 1 m are the same volume? Or do we just need more information about the varieties of trees in question? Or windspeed?

And what does this all mean about the volume of a train?

 

[Voltz]

8-10 years??? I thought city council wanted the Eglinton West and East extensions to be done by 2021.

They must still be sticking with that ridiculous Alternative Procurement P3 that Metrolinx has a fetish for, these timelines are much longer than when the TTC was going to build them.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

Now the matter is even more confused. The rustling leaves which were compared to the volume of a quack (20 dBA) were significantly louder than the rustling leaves which are being compared to the volume of a conversation at 1 m (10 dBA). Do I trust therefore that a quack and a conversation at 1 m are the same volume? Or do we just need more information about the varieties of trees in question? Or windspeed?

And what does this all mean about the volume of a train?

It means that whoever thought it was a good idea to use a log scale to measure sound was a quack.

 

[crs1026]

Something I noticed about the ridership projections for Crosstown East and West is that East is projected to have about 43,000 riders per day, while West is projected to have 60 to 70,000 riders. This doesn't really make sense to me, as:
- Crosstown East has much higher peak ridership
- There's more development along Eglinton East
- There's been far more bus ridership coming into Kennedy, than there is coming into the Mt. Dennis corridor.

Any ideas?

This is pure speculation - but -

Suppose that in the east, the modal share already favours transit. The variable driving ridership growth is new development (and as a secondary factor, improved trip time). If the people already present use transit, the people who arrive with development will use it too.

Now suppose that in the west, the modal share does not favour transit. There is a large potential customer base already on hand (the airport jobs areas, plus the airport itself). The variable driving ridership growth is the belief that an LRT will capture added market share (fewer autos, more LRT riders). The people who are present will begin to use transit. Development may bolster this, but development is not the driving variable.

I suspect that the projection for the east may be higher confidence than the projection than the west. We don't know how attractive the new LRT will be compared to driving, that depends on its routing (tbd north of Eglinton), the number of stops, the travel time, etc etc. We do know that the buses in the east are full, and people will accept a change to LRT.

Just my hypothesis.

- Paul

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

Something I noticed about the ridership projections for Crosstown East and West is that East is projected to have about 43,000 riders per day, while West is projected to have 60 to 70,000 riders. This doesn't really make sense to me, as:
- Crosstown East has much higher peak ridership
- There's more development along Eglinton East
- There's been far more bus ridership coming into Kennedy, than there is coming into the Mt. Dennis corridor.

Any ideas?

Transfers from Mississauga Transitway.

 

[44 North]

Something I noticed about the ridership projections for Crosstown East and West is that East is projected to have about 43,000 riders per day, while West is projected to have 60 to 70,000 riders. This doesn't really make sense to me, as:
- Crosstown East has much higher peak ridership
- There's more development along Eglinton East
- There's been far more bus ridership coming into Kennedy, than there is coming into the Mt. Dennis corridor.

Any ideas?

Where'd you get that number, particularly the line broken down into sections? My fall back is a 2008 Metrolinx backgrounder. It gives annual per line projections, and iirc my maths got me an avg daily ridership of 196,000 for the entire line.

Correct that 43k seems on the low side. One thing that quite possibly resulted in a lower X-Town East than previously envisioned is SSE. With the SRT/SLRT there was a transfer and choice between Line 2 and 5 from those heading from SCC to Kennedy. Now many may choose to stay on Line 2 to wherever they're headed. The projection for the West seems about right though.

 

[sixrings]

8 years. SMH.

 

[BurlOak]

I don't have the numbers now, but I remember the SmartTrack number for west were very dependent on transit speed and frequency. A slow on-street LRT had low ridership, even though frequency was high. Meanwhile, the limited stop high frequency ST had high ridership.
I don't think they had the numbers, but presumably a high frequency, fast, and reliable LRT (which can be achieved with grade-separation) with stations only at major roads would have the highest ridership.
But since they haven't studied this, I would agree that there are more unknowns.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Forget about noisy light-rail vehicles or traffic, what about noisy neighbours?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I don't have the numbers now, but I remember the SmartTrack number for west were very dependent on transit speed and frequency. A slow on-street LRT had low ridership, even though frequency was high. Meanwhile, the limited stop high frequency ST had high ridership.
I don't think they had the numbers, but presumably a high frequency, fast, and reliable LRT (which can be achieved with grade-separation) with stations only at major roads would have the highest ridership.
But since they haven't studied this, I would agree that there are more unknowns.

I believe these are the numbers you're talking about:

So this actually shows that the Crosstown LRT option, which has more stops than the other heavy rail options, generated the most ridership of the three options. In particular, the LRT generated 22,000 more daily riders than the Eglinton heavy rail option with three stops. The Crosstown West was expected to have all day ridership of 60,000 persons, so a difference of 22,000 is very significant. I find the higher ridership numbers for Crosstown West particularly surprising since the LRT would not benefit from having a direct Central Etobicoke to Downtown connection.

Finally, here's a map showing peak eastbound AM ridership for SmartTrack's western spur (the first option in the table above).

What's notable here is that the peak hour ridership eastbound from Mt. Dennis was 9,161 pphpd. Can we deduce from this that the Crosstown West would have even higher peak hour ridership, since its all day ridership is expected to be higher than the all day ridership for the SmartTrack western spur? In either case, the ridership on Crosstown West LRT could be quite high; certainly higher than the Sheppard Subway or any other LRT line, and likely higher than the Spadina Subway or Scarborough Subway (both move approx 7500 pphpd). For reference, the Eglinton LRT was previously expected to have eastbound peak hour volumes of 3950 pphpd at Mt Dennis and 5750 pphpd at Eglinton West.

http://www.thecrosstown.ca/sites/default/files/eglinton_crosstown_lrt_demand_forecasting_report.pdf

 

[Johnny Au]

Forget about noisy light-rail vehicles or traffic, what about noisy neighbours?

What about neighbours with teenage garage rock bands?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

View attachment 77630

Is it just me, or are the titles for these charts reversed?

Eastbound should read Westbound and vice versa.

 

[salsa]

On twitter I found this rendering of one of the surface stops. Not sure if it was posted here before.

 

[W. K. Lis]

From a panel from the SmartTrack/Eglinton West LRT presentation, there was this slide:

What is those "Approved" developments in the southwest corner of Eglinton & Kipling? Did I miss some signage, or did they fall down and were never righted?

There was a new LCBO store that was recently built and opened at the southeast corner of Lloyd Manor & Eglinton, so how can that section be "approved" for development as well?

Maybe someone could put in some links that would explain them?