Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[nfitz]

LRTs are also wider than a normal bus.

The question I had is how do you get 200 people on an 18-metre articulated bus when TTC says 77. I'm sure you can always cram a few more on.

The Flexities are twice the length of a bus, and the LRT's for Eglinton LRT are even bigger than the Flexities.

The Flexities are 2.5 times as long as a bus. However the LRVs for Eglinton are the same length as the TTC Flexity which only holds 130. It is true that they are 0.11 metres wider (width of 2.65 metres compared to 2.54 metres) - but that's only 4% wider.

How then do you get from 130 people to 250 people, other than perhaps for a grade 1 field trip or if Toronto hosts the 2017 World Dwarf Games.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Don't forget the Eglinton LRV's will be running as trains. They are supposed to start with two-car trains. Two-car trains would be double the capacity. There is allowance for three-car trains (at the moment) which would triple the carrying capacity. Driven by one operator outside, using ATO (automatic train operation) in the tunnels where they could serve as guards.

 

[nfitz]

Don't forget the Eglinton LRV's will be running as trains.

If you can only get 130 people on a single car, how do you get 750 on the 3-car train - which was what was stated above?

How does running the cars in trains allow you to fit more people in each car?

 

[W. K. Lis]

They will not be running single cars, except if the numbers warrant it. They'll just add more cars to the train. It not bigger in the inside than the outside, unless they allow access to the cabs. Off duty operators may use them, though, if they carry the keys with them.

 

[howl]

There's no way you get 200 people in any 18-metre artic. And there's no way a Flexity Freedom has almost double the capacity of a TTC Flexity ... that puts more people in the car per metre of length than a much-wider subway car - reality is that it would be much less because not only is it narrow, but the % of space taken up by seating is higher.

Research much?

The Volvo 7500 is available in both an articulated and a bi-articulated version. The bi-articulated bus is designed to accommodate up to 200 passengers. In certain markets, however, it would be fully possible to increase the capacity to 270 passengers. - See more at: http://www.volvogroup.com/group/glo...2565&News.Language=en-gb#sthash.yvUCArc0.dpuf

The Flexity Freedom name reflects 'freedom for operators to configure to their needs', according to Bombardier's Raymond Bachant. The car is 2 650 mm wide and can be offered in three or five sections, with a maximum capacity of 153 or 251 passengers respectively. http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...lexity-to-the-north-american-tram-market.html

 

[averagegeek]

Flexity Freedom (Eglinton)

Moduels	Width	Length	Height	Fixed seats	Flip up Seats	ADA/Multi-use	Standees	Max Capacity
3	2.65m	20 m	3.6m	34	4	2	79 (6 pass./m²)	135
5	2.65m	30.8 m	3.6m	56	8	4	130 (6 pass./m²)	251

Source:
http://98.141.86.152/adwheel2012/entries/3988053/464008.FlexityFreedom_Brochurelowres.pdf

Flexity Outlook (Toronto streetcar)

Moduels	Width	Length	Height	Seats	Standees	Max capacity
5	2.54 m	30.20 m	3.84 m	70	181***	251

*** = not sure how the TTC came up with that number.
Source:
http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Projects/New_Vehicles/New_Streetcars/Meet_Your_New_Ride/index.jsp

Type	Number of Cars	Car Length	Car Width	Car Height	Train Length	Seats	Standees	Max capacity
ICS	4	13 m	2.48 m	?	52 m	120 (30 per car)	300 (75 per car)???	420?
T-1	4	23 m	3.14 m	3.65	92 m	264 (66 per car)	694 (165-182 per car)??	958?
	6	23 m	3.14 m	3.65	138 m	396 (66 per car)	1058 (165-182 per car)??	1454?
Toronto Rocket	6	23 m	3.14 m	?	138 m	390 (64-68 per car)	1058 (165-182 per car) - 6 pass./m²	1448

390 is my best guess, i cant figure out how many A, B and C cars there are per train. I'm also not sure how many can stand on T-1, so those numbers are a guess.
Source:
http://www.bombardier.com/en/transp...ountry=ca&f-segment=all&f-type=all&f-name=all
http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Projects/New_Vehicles/New_Subway_Train/index.jsp
http://www3.ttc.ca/PDF/Transit_Planning/Service_Summary_2009_10_18.pdf (page 71)

Since the LRT can be a max of 3 units together, that makes the max of Eglinton Crosstown line 750 max.

 

[nfitz]

Research much?

You can reference any fiction out there on the Internet. If TTC can only fit 70+ people on an 18-metre artic, then how do you fit 200 people (let alone 270 people in some markets) in an 18-metre artic. These references are clearly fiction. It's not like they are saying 100, which maybe you could crunch in. But 200. It's complete and utter BS.

Similarly, the numbers for the Flexity from Bombardier appear to be fictional. Oh my, Bombardier lies - is anyone surprised?

 

[ehlow]

Here are the TTC crowding standards:

https://www.ttc.ca/PDF/Transit_Planning/Crowding _Standards 2014.pdf

 

[nfitz]

Here are the TTC crowding standards:

https://www.ttc.ca/PDF/Transit_Planning/Crowding _Standards 2014.pdf

Which to be fair aren't crush loads. Though once you exceed the peak loud, the route capacity drops, because the streetcar spends forever loading and unloading. The ALRV crush load is 205 as reported by the TTC. Which I also find hard to believe. Though if you can only crush 205 in a 23-metre streecar, (and 132 in 15-metre streetcar). How do you get 200 in an 18-metre bus?

Based on those numbers, the 250 crush load for the 30-metre Flexities does start to look a bit more reasonable. But what I'm really questioning is the 200 (let alone 270!) crush load for an 18-metre bus!

Either way, you can't use these numbers for planning purposes. Once you cross the peak load, it goes to hell. 77 for an 18-metre articulated bus. if 130 for a TTC Flexity, then can't be more than 150 for a Transit City Flexity ... so 450 for a train.

If Metrolinx are using 750 for a 3-car 90-metre train, then they've completely screwed up. (edit - the Crosstown website indicates that the capacity of a 3-car train is 490, with 163 in each car ... a bit higher than 150 estimated, but certainly not the 250 mentioned above).

The TTC 4-car 92-metre subway trains are much wider (3.14 metres versus 2.65 for the Transit City Flexity) and they only have a peak capacity of 670! A better comparison are the 50.8-metre long 2.49-metre wide SRT trains that hold 220 - extend that to 90 metres and you have 390 people per train. So based on that, a lot closer to 390 than 670.

 

[ehlow]

There's no way you can fit 200 people on an articulated 18 meter bus...

 

[averagegeek]

The TTC 4-car 92-metre subway trains are much wider (3.14 metres versus 2.65 for the Transit City Flexity) and they only have a peak capacity of 670! A better comparison are the 50.8-metre long 2.49-metre wide SRT trains that hold 220 - extend that to 90 metres and you have 390 people per train. So based on that, a lot closer to 390 than 670.

I updated last post to make it more readable and i added more information. I also fixed a mistake i made, i added the LRT Max capacity wrong, it should be right now. I agree with you that 250 seems way too much for the LRT and street cars.

 

[howl]

There's no way you can fit 200 people on an articulated 18 meter bus...

The bus is 24m long. With it's normal seating layout it has capacity of 165 people and a crush load of 200.

 

[rbt]

Research much?

In certain markets you can regularly fit 2500 people on a Toronto Rocket train. This isn't certain markets, this is the Toronto market.

Capacity standards for Toronto need to be designed for what Torontonians will actually do. We almost never achieve what manufacturers claim is a crush load.

 

[nfitz]

The bus is 24m long. With it's normal seating layout it has capacity of 165 people and a crush load of 200.

Makes a bit more sense, but that's still high for peak capacity. 130 for a 23-metre streetcar but 165 for a 24-metre bus? Crush loading seems a bit high too, given the limitations of buses versus streetcars.

Though the biggest question is why are you basing costs on 24-metre buses? Have you ever seen a 24-metre bus anywhere in the GTA? Or anywhere at all for that matter.

And why are you basing the number of buses or LRTs you need on crush capacity rather than peak capacity?

 

[howl]

In certain markets you can regularly fit 2500 people on a Toronto Rocket train. This isn't certain markets, this is the Toronto market.

Capacity standards for Toronto need to be designed for what Torontonians will actually do. We almost never achieve what manufacturers claim is a crush load.

Apparently you don't understand the discussion. We're not discussing the Toronto market. The Toronto market was never mentioned. We are discussing the theoretical maximum number of people you could possibly get on a bus in order to compare the best-case-scenario operation costs across different technologies.