Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[denfromoakvillemilton]

They won't have a clue what you are talking about ...

Thanks, now I might not go at all.

 

[smallspy]

Also, we only used half of what was built. The other half, the Rosedale Valley portion which was also built at significant expense, remains unused.

That's a very generous definition of half, methinks.

And for the record, it was either they use the Rosedale Valley portion, or build Castle Frank Station. Looking back on it, I think they made the right choice.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[drum118]

They won't have a clue what you are talking about ...

It depends on whom they talked to. Some of the board members are very knowledgeable on the various plans to talk about it, but will still send the person to staff to talk about it since they have to report to the board as a whole in the first place.

During the discussion around the Yonge LRT Station today, question were raised about it as well changing the name of the process. They can see and understanding why the exist subway station will be lengthen to deal with the interchange of the 2 lines.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

It depends on whom they talked to. Some of the board members are very knowledgeable on the various plans to talk about it, but will still send the person to staff to talk about it since they have to report to the board as a whole in the first place.

During the discussion around the Yonge LRT Station today, question were raised about it as well changing the name of the process. They can see and understanding why the exist subway station will be lengthen to deal with the interchange of the 2 lines.

I'm sorry I missed it. When is the next one?

 

[drum118]

I'm sorry I missed it. When is the next one?

About every quarter or as needed. No idea when the next one is as it was up for discussion behind close doors unless I miss something. It will be posted on Metrolinx site in the new year.

Over all, your chances talking to BOD member is small unless it is with the chair and CEO. You can talk to staff after the meeting. If you know a member, it maybe more.

As it stands now, 50 weekends starting in 2016-18 will see the closure of the Eglinton subway Station with shuttle buses running between Davisvalle and Lawrence. Looks like every other weekend or 2 apart, or together.

 

[innsertnamehere]

lots of pain to get the gain I guess.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

About every quarter or as needed. No idea when the next one is as it was up for discussion behind close doors unless I miss something. It will be posted on Metrolinx site in the new year.

Over all, your chances talking to BOD member is small unless it is with the chair and CEO. You can talk to staff after the meeting. If you know a member, it maybe more.

As it stands now, 50 weekends starting in 2016-18 will see the closure of the Eglinton subway Station with shuttle buses running between Davisvalle and Lawrence. Looks like every other weekend or 2 apart, or together.

Thanks. Hope to see you at the next one.

lots of pain to get the gain I guess.

Tell me about it.

 

[CityPlaceN1]

50 weekends is only a year. Not a huge deal.

 

[innsertnamehere]

So I got thinking about how the province is going to be paying for operations of this line, and decided to see how much it would save the TTC in operating costs. Turns out the TTC actually earns (assuming $2.50 average paid fare) around $30,000 per weekday from the Eglinton bus line, meaning it will probably $8 million dollar deficit annually compared to today. This of course doesn't count saved costs of running buses like Lawrence east all the way to Eglinton station, but as a direct replacement it actually costs them. The Sheppard LRT will cost the TTC around $1 million annually in lost revenues, while the Finch LRT will cost around $8 million as well. This assumes that the TTC doesn't see a cent of revenues from the additional lines however, which I find unlikely.

I wonder what the final setup will be for the LRTs, how will provincial funding work for them? will fares go directly to the bottom line of the TTC contract, with any operating profits going to the TTC, or will it be a flat contract where the province assumes 100% of the operating costs, sort of acting like it is free and giving the fare revenues to the city? While I hope for the latter, I find it unlikely..

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Now that you mention it, does anyone have any clue why Metrolinx is insisting on being able to own and maintain the LRT lines? Short of them trying to broaden their influence I can't understand why they'd want to do that.

Personally I'm hope the profits/deficits just go to the TTC. And in my ideal world, the ownership and maintenance of the line would be downgraded to the City as well (I know this won't be happening). I really don't want any provincial agencies and the associated politicking having anything to do with our LRV lines.

 

[innsertnamehere]

they get to keep the equity in them, it helps with financing, instead of writing a check to the TTC and calling it a day.

I'm fine with it, maintaining proper service levels and a state of good repair is much easier under provincial operation. TTC can essentially ask for more money to help with increased service levels and the province will give it to them. $5 million here or there is small change for the province, unlike the city.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Okay you swayed me

I just hope that there won't be any political bickering from the two levels of government.

 

[rbt]

So I got thinking about how the province is going to be paying for operations of this line, and decided to see how much it would save the TTC in operating costs. Turns out the TTC actually earns (assuming $2.50 average paid fare) around $30,000 per weekday from the Eglinton bus line, meaning it will probably $8 million dollar deficit annually compared to today.

TTC average fare was $2.0818 in 2012 for adults. Discounted student/senior/child tickets are somewhere below that.

Metropasses are the main reason why they make under $2.50 per trip; although I believe that number also includes fare-fraud, non-payment, and other issues.

Also worth noting is that most Eglinton bus line users will also use an additional service. Their trips do not both start and end on the bus line; so some kind of division of the fare for the different components of the trip would need to be applied.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

TTC average fare was $2.0818 in 2012 for adults. Discounted student/senior/child tickets are somewhere below that.

Metropasses are the main reason why they make under $2.50 per trip; although I believe that number also includes fare-fraud, non-payment, and other issues.

Also worth noting is that most Eglinton bus line users will also use an additional service. Their trips do not both start and end on the bus line; so some kind of division of the fare for the different components of the trip would need to be applied.

Would you think that increased presto usage would help recover fares? Or no?

 

[Solid Snake]

page 59 of the report

http://www.neptis.org/sites/default...olinxs_big_move_neptis_foundation_schabas.pdf

Eglinton Crosstown Ridership

There are some inconsistencies in the data presented in the Eglinton Crosstown BCA. Ridership seems to be very high: about 350,000 per day and more than double the TTC forecast and three times existing bus ridership. Yet incremental revenues are very small, implying less than 10,000 new riders per day. Operating costs seem optimistic; the figures suggest that savings from operating fewer bus-km would not only entirely offset all costs of operating the LRT, but also provide a substantial surplus.

Metrolinx provides some total ridership figures for the “Big 5†schemes in a series of project fact sheets, but has not specified the proportion expected to be new riders. The Eglinton Crosstown BCA gives a figure of 105 million boardings in 2021, which works out to 350,000 riders per day with an annualization factor of 300. This is double TTC’s forecast of 176,000 per day, and about three times as much as current bus ridership on the route. It is also two-thirds of the current traffic on the Bloor Danforth subway. We question the validity of this figure.

The Metrolinx BCA provides a figure of $5.6 million per year or $101 million NPV for incremental
revenues on the Eglinton LRT. This figure implies new ridership of less than 10,000 per day. We do not understand how this figure can be consistent with Metrolinx’s forecast of 105 million boardings on the line in the same year. Again, we find the figure questionable.

Eglinton Crosstown Cost

Although LRT is often proposed as a way to offer the service speed of a subway, at the cost of a streetcar, the infrastructure costs are still substantial and in some cases not much less than for a full subway.

They are questioning TTC ridership numbers. Without going back to subways vs LRT, this line should have been 100% grade separated. Were the numbers purposely underestimated just to have at grade trains on the avenue?


Ways to improve the Eglinton Crosstown scheme

1.Reduce the number of intermediate stations, to reduce capital and operating costs, offer faster journey times that will attract more new riders, and reduce disruption in surrounding communities. There should be a maximum of 10 stations on the 11-km underground section. The Avenue Road, Chaplin, and Oakwood stations could be omitted. Laird Drive station can be deferred, and built if and when a developer makes a substantial capital contribution to the station. Capital cost savings would be about $600 million, with a further savings of $1 million per year O&M costs per station.

2. Use high-floor cars with a top speed of 100km/h, such as the ALRT Mark 3 being supplied to Vancouver, instead of the 80 km/h low-floor cars TTC has specified. Besides saving staff costs, the higher speeds and faster journey will attract additional riders. Note that, as on the subway and existing RT, high-floor ALRT cars stop at high platform stations and will therefore be fully accessible.

3. Grade-separate the entire line, so trains will not affect road traffic and will offer faster journeys for transit riders. East of Laird Drive and west of Weston Road, Eglinton is a wide street with plenty of space to build an elevated line without harming the environment. This would add about $800 million to project costs, or perhaps $100 million per km, compared with the surface line that is currently planned. Road traffic disruption will be greatly reduced and there will be little or no permanent loss of road space.

4. Automate the trains. With an entirely grade-separated line, trains can be automated, with large
operating cost savings and the ability to offer more frequent off-peak services.

5.Build shorter platforms to reduce station costs. Current plans show 150-metre platforms, similar to the subway. Savings of about $10 million per underground station, or about $100 million could be captured by building 60-metre platforms, sufficient for all foreseeable traffic.

Eglinton East being at grade makes no sense at all