Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[Adjei]

This is an incredibly bad idea, even more so than the Sheppard East LRT. Putting two incompatible types of rail on one corridor is poor planning. Even more so on Don Mills, because the most congested section of the DVP is between Eglinton and 401, and you have got to relieve that section.

I know enough of these forced transfers. If a subway won't be built north of Eglinton to at least Finch, then nothing should be built.

 

[Canadian Chocho]

This is an incredibly bad idea, even more so than the Sheppard East LRT. Putting two incompatible types of rail on one corridor is poor planning. Even more so on Don Mills, because the most congested section of the DVP is between Eglinton and 401, and you have got to relieve that section.

While I agree with the notion that we should really try not to segment corridors into many different lines/technologies, I do think that once you reach an average low-density its inevitable. However in this case I fully agree with you, and you bring up a good point about the level of congestion on the DVP there. Ideally people coming from the 404 or 401 would leave their cars at Don Mills and take the DRL downtown.

 

[JayBeeGooner]

This is an incredibly bad idea, even more so than the Sheppard East LRT. Putting two incompatible types of rail on one corridor is poor planning. Even more so on Don Mills, because the most congested section of the DVP is between Eglinton and 401, and you have got to relieve that section.

It's not uncommon transit users to change modes in a corridor. Yonge St for example. What's poor planning is thinking the only technology that matters is subway. It's largely why transit expansion in Toronto has been slow. The purpose of the DRL isn't to relieve a short congested section on the DVP.

 

[Hipster Duck]

I think that the DRL tunnel along Eglinton from ET Seton Park to Don Mills will be very steep to make it up the ravine from below the riverbed of the Don into the station at Don Mills. Either that, or we have to completely reconfigure the planned Crosstown station box to be, itself, very deep to accommodate the DRL. Of course, this means that the Ferrand stop will have to be axed (not altogether a bad thing) and the Crosstown portal would emerge somewhere near Wynford.

Honestly, having a Lionel-Groulx setup sounds good on the forum, but I think it will be a difficult engineering project that will add considerably to both the DRL and the Crosstown's cost and time spent in construction. For a cross-platform transfer, we lose a stop at Flemingdon Park, a stop at Ferrand, a comparatively easier tunneling job under Don Mills and the ability to extend the DRL up Don Mills for the foreseeable future. If it's a 'victory', then it's a Battle of the Somme kind of victory.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

If ever. Really I think the DRL should end at Eglinton and LRT run north of there. (on both sides, Don mills LRT on one end and Jane LRT on the other)

This is an incredibly bad idea, even more so than the Sheppard East LRT. Putting two incompatible types of rail on one corridor is poor planning. Even more so on Don Mills, because the most congested section of the DVP is between Eglinton and 401, and you have got to relieve that section.

I know enough of these forced transfers. If a subway won't be built north of Eglinton to at least Finch, then nothing should be built.

While I agree with the notion that we should really try not to segment corridors into many different lines/technologies, I do think that once you reach an average low-density its inevitable. However in this case I fully agree with you, and you bring up a good point about the level of congestion on the DVP there. Ideally people coming from the 404 or 401 would leave their cars at Don Mills and take the DRL downtown.

It's not uncommon transit users to change modes in a corridor. Yonge St for example. What's poor planning is thinking the only technology that matters is subway. It's largely why transit expansion in Toronto has been slow. The purpose of the DRL isn't to relieve a short congested section on the DVP.

The Don Mills LRT has been dead for 4 years. It's not coming back. Let me repeat, the Don Mills LRT is dead. Jane might get its LRT or a subway, but I don't see the need of a subway. with Keele and Finch having a subway stop.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Thing is that there are almost no intercepting bus routes along Don Mills. the only riders along the corridor are using the Don Mills bus, and no riders would really be intercepted. Don Mills north of Eglinton is almost exclusively a local corridor, and would be just as well served by LRT as subway. The Don Mills LRT should interline with Eglinton anyway, as well as Jane. (instead of 1/2 the trains turning back, 1/2 would go up don mills)

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Thing is that there are almost no intercepting bus routes along Don Mills. the only riders along the corridor are using the Don Mills bus, and no riders would really be intercepted. Don Mills north of Eglinton is almost exclusively a local corridor, and would be just as well served by LRT as subway. The Don Mills LRT should interline with Eglinton anyway, as well as Jane. (instead of 1/2 the trains turning back, 1/2 would go up don mills)

But it's a another transfer. I want to avoid the crap with Kennedy. People will complain. On Google I see what you are talking about but still.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Hmm, what about running Sheppard to the Don Mills/Eglinton DRL terminus - then riders from Scarborough can arguably have only a one transfer ride to the core.

AoD

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Hmm, what about running Sheppard to the Don Mills/Eglinton DRL terminus - then riders from Scarborough can arguably have only a one transfer ride to the core.

AoD

Bingo. That will work.

 

[innsertnamehere]

But they don't *have* to transfer, they would be able to run to eglinton on yonge if they wanted (and transfer there). Its still a single transfer to get downtown. no way is it worth spending $2-3 billion extra to run a subway that is completely empty. its completely practical, and the don Mills bus isn't even that busy north of Eglinton. (most of its ridership is from people in flemingdon park getting to the B-D line)

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

But they don't *have* to transfer, they would be able to run to eglinton on yonge if they wanted (and transfer there). Its still a single transfer to get downtown. no way is it worth spending $2-3 billion extra to run a subway that is completely empty. its completely practical, and the don Mills bus isn't even that busy north of Eglinton. (most of its ridership is from people in flemingdon park getting to the B-D line)

I hate to agree with andrew here, but you and I know that would work perfectly fine. I'm just worried about public perception. I think Don Mills to Finch would take pressure off the Yonge Line. Same the BD to Finch. Peel as many riders off as possible.

 

[andrewpmk]

It's not uncommon transit users to change modes in a corridor. Yonge St for example. What's poor planning is thinking the only technology that matters is subway. It's largely why transit expansion in Toronto has been slow. The purpose of the DRL isn't to relieve a short congested section on the DVP.

The DVP between Eglinton and 401 (and the 404 southbound south of Finch) is congested practically all day, 7 days a week. It is not just a rush hour problem. This has got to be the single worst bottleneck on the Toronto highway system, caused because that section of the DVP is only 3 lanes each way wide (except 4 lanes between York Mills and 401) and 2 lanes on the bridge connecting 404 and DVP. In rush hour, the DVP/404 is pretty much gridlocked all the way from Stouffville Road to the Gardiner and it regularly takes 60-90 minutes to drive that section; the DVP/404 combination tends to have the worst travel times of any highway in the city. If you add in the fact that the Yonge line is severely overcrowded south of Finch, this means that a Don Mills subway line to Finch would get extremely high ridership, probably higher than any other proposed transit line in the GTA.

Putting LRT and subway on the same corridor is always a bad idea. The Sheppard LRT was only proposed because the eastern end of the Sheppard subway was cancelled due to Mike Harris cuts, and there was not enough money to extend it. No one would ever propose such an arrangement from scratch, we would choose one technology or the other for the entire corridor. There are always going to be bus-subway transfers in the system, but the difference is that a bus can easily be replaced with a subway extension while an LRT is almost impossible to get rid of (politically) when it gets severely overcrowded.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

andrewpmk:

Just because a highway is highly saturated doesn't say anything about public transit route covering part of the way will be busy - they are likely serving fundamentally different destinations, and switching from LRT to subways won't be competitive from a travel time perspective - you really need regional rail for that.

but the difference is that a bus can easily be replaced with a subway extension while an LRT is almost impossible to get rid of (politically) when it gets severely overcrowded.

Huh? Where is the evidence of that please? Besides, if one is going to equate LRTs to streetcars, Toronto is replete with examples of lines being replaced by subways when they get overcrowded.

AoD

 

[andrewpmk]

Look at the whole Scarborough RT fiasco right now. We are talking about replacing the deteriorating SRT with a costly subway, which is politically difficult.

Wasting a billion to build the Sheppard LRT then replacing it with a subway 20 years later when it becomes overcrowded (which would require closing the LRT during construction because of the plan to put the Don Mills end of the LRT underground) is a lot more expensive than simply building the Sheppard subway extension to begin with. The difference with replacing the old streetcar system with the Yonge and Bloor subways is that the old streetcar lines were built in the 19th century when Toronto was not a very big city and then was replaced with a subway almost 100 years later.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

The DVP between Eglinton and 401 (and the 404 southbound south of Finch) is congested practically all day, 7 days a week. It is not just a rush hour problem. This has got to be the single worst bottleneck on the Toronto highway system, caused because that section of the DVP is only 3 lanes each way wide (except 4 lanes between York Mills and 401) and 2 lanes on the bridge connecting 404 and DVP. In rush hour, the DVP/404 is pretty much gridlocked all the way from Stouffville Road to the Gardiner and it regularly takes 60-90 minutes to drive that section; the DVP/404 combination tends to have the worst travel times of any highway in the city. If you add in the fact that the Yonge line is severely overcrowded south of Finch, this means that a Don Mills subway line to Finch would get extremely high ridership, probably higher than any other proposed transit line in the GTA.

Putting LRT and subway on the same corridor is always a bad idea. The Sheppard LRT was only proposed because the eastern end of the Sheppard subway was cancelled due to Mike Harris cuts, and there was not enough money to extend it. No one would ever propose such an arrangement from scratch, we would choose one technology or the other for the entire corridor. There are always going to be bus-subway transfers in the system, but the difference is that a bus can easily be replaced with a subway extension while an LRT is almost impossible to get rid of (politically) when it gets severely overcrowded.

andrewpmk:

Just because a highway is highly saturated doesn't say anything about public transit route covering part of the way will be busy - they are likely serving fundamentally different destinations, and switching from LRT to subways won't be competitive from a travel time perspective - you really need regional rail for that.



Huh? Where is the evidence of that please? Besides, if one is going to equate LRTs to streetcars, Toronto is replete with examples of lines being replaced by subways when they get overcrowded.

AoD

Look at the whole Scarborough RT fiasco right now. We are talking about replacing the deteriorating SRT with a costly subway, which is politically difficult.

Wasting a billion to build the Sheppard LRT then replacing it with a subway 20 years later when it becomes overcrowded (which would require closing the LRT during construction because of the plan to put the Don Mills end of the LRT underground) is a lot more expensive than simply building the Sheppard subway extension to begin with. The difference with replacing the old streetcar system with the Yonge and Bloor subways is that the old streetcar lines were built in the 19th century when Toronto was not a very big city and then was replaced with a subway almost 100 years later.

Ok, I think the issue that capacity. Don Mills is not congested enough like Yonge but I feel the subway should be one technology should be throughout the whole corridor. Not to peel people off the DVP. Because most people will still drive. We need a hell of alot more North South transit if we want to reach NYC Numbers.