Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[ssiguy2]

Elevation east of DM and West of BC is the ONLY way to go and contrary to popular belief most people don't have a problem with it. In Vancouver there are condos going up that are literally15 meters from the elvated rail lines and people love it. They do not have to look unattractive and actually can be made to look quite pleasant. It would also be a FAR easier sell to suburbanites when you explain to them that elevated structures won't effect traffic on the roadways unlike at grade LRT which will play havec on the road system.
The problem with Toronto is that they want to elevate LRT. Elevated LRT has the lowest capacity of subway/SkyTrain/monorail and yet is the most difficult to build and the most pedestrian unfriendly and unsightly. Elevated LRT tracks ussually have to be WIDER than the other three elevated systems because they have to have room in the middle of the tracks for the electrical poles. That creates a larger shawdow under the rail tracks. Adding to that is the fact that elevated LRT actually creates a much taller and unsightly structure. In the other three systems the tracks are the highest point of the line but LRT requires the poles for electrical so not only do you have an concrete support but then on top of that another5 meter electrical pole creating poles on top of pylons.............not a very pleasant prospect.
If the system is to be totally grade separated the most cost effective route would be extending the SkyTrain east along Eglinton.
Outside of that monorail is the most obvious choice as it has subway capacity, the most slender support structures and no solid overhead tracks like the other systems so has. by far. the smallest shawdow. and use rubber wheels which are not only smoother but quieter especially outside of the trains making then much more palatable for those people along the corridors who have concerns about the noise of the systems.
Monorail is also the fastest and least disruptive to build as most of the system is built off site and then transfer to the site. That saves a lot of labour cost.
It is also very noteworthy that Bombardier is charging ahead with monorail systems worldwide and has recently got money from Queen's Park for a monorail production site in Kingston to manufacture and display it's new systems which many transit analyst seem to think set a new benchmark in monorail technology. We all know any supplier must be monorail but the fact they could be built in Ontario in a requirement as well....................that was not an option a few years ago. The new monorail trains for the massive 50,000 pphpd 110km Sao Paulo system currently under constrcution are actually being built in Pittsburgh and Kingston.

 

[ssiguy2]

Addendum..............
There are new pics of the current construction of the Sao Paulo systems at monorails.org
On the first page at the top just click Sao Paulo gallery and look at the pics..........the very bottom one exemplifies what I have been saying about how little the actual tracks cast a shawdow and how the track is built off site and then just place on the plyons.
Needless to say I have absolutley no computer skills so if someone could put up the pics that would be appreciated.
Also interesting to note that another Indian city wants to build monorail and hopes to have it up and running by 2015 and another city wants to build an 5km airport connector to a main train station. The line is endorsed by the airport itself and most importantly the local Chamber of Commerce. The city?..................Melbourne!

 

[spider]

Am I seeing a proposal to build an elevated structure on an exclusive restricted ROW in the middle of Eglinton Ave. E?
If stations are proposed to be spaced 800M apart would vehicles only be allowed to cross the ROW at these points?
Would pedestrians be subject to these same restrictions?
Would the rolling stock be the same low floor configuration train sets that will be running on City streets in traffic?

If the answers to the above questions are yes I think there will be considerable opposition from everyone along Eglinton Avenue who is not a Streetcar fan. I anticipate an adverse reaction to building a new Gardiner Expressway like barrier down the middle of the road. Isn't having to climb stairs at every station to board a low floor vehicle a little silly?

 

[Tulse]

I really don't get the love of elevated transit -- to me it is so profoundly visually intrusive, and creates dead spaces underneath.

 

[Dan416]

I really don't get the love of elevated transit -- to me it is so profoundly visually intrusive, and creates dead spaces underneath.

If underground is too expensive, elevated is a cheaper alternative that's better than in the median.

 

[Rainforest]

I really don't get the love of elevated transit -- to me it is so profoundly visually intrusive, and creates dead spaces underneath.

Again - it depends on the design. A standalone concrete slab is intrusive and creates a dead space; Gardiner fits that description perfectly. Vancouver's SkyTrain is not quite as bad because it is not quite as wide; but it is not top of the line when it comes to streetscape integration. There are better options, actually implemented in other cities.

 

[Palma]

If underground is too expensive, elevated is a cheaper alternative that's better than in the median.

There is no way that elevated is better than median. I love the College, Queen and King streetcars and they are not even ROW. Of course downtown with the amount of cars and people its hard to go above the speed limit which is nice and those street are so vibrant. Putting anything below ground on those street would be a tragedy

 

[ssiguy2]

I really don't get the love of elevated transit -- to me it is so profoundly visually intrusive, and creates dead spaces underneath.

Depends on how it's developed.
I went to Dim Sum last week in Richmond. We were one floor up and the SkyTrain was literally 10 meters from where I was sitting and I didn't hear a thing. There are condos and commercial developments going right up against the line and the base of the pillars have trees and plants growing. Elevated structures don't cut the roads in half like LRT medians. The SkyTrain goes along one side of the road so it's visual presence doesn't feel as great and is easier to access stations.
The area has far MORE pedestrian traffic now than it did before the SkyTrain and having far fewer buses going down the road also makes it safer and, believe it or not, quieter.

 

[BurlOak]

Again - it depends on the design. A standalone concrete slab is intrusive and creates a dead space; Gardiner fits that description perfectly. Vancouver's SkyTrain is not quite as bad because it is not quite as wide; but it is not top of the line when it comes to streetscape integration. There are better options, actually implemented in other cities.

I do not think anyone is proposing a 6 lane wide elevated LRT structure. Comparisson to the Gardiner is the same as comparing median LRT to the at-grade CN/CP tracks near Union Station.

 

[spider]

Am I seeing a proposal to build an elevated structure on an exclusive restricted ROW in the middle of Eglinton Ave. E?
If stations are proposed to be spaced 800M apart would vehicles only be allowed to cross the ROW at these points?
Would pedestrians be subject to these same restrictions?
Would the rolling stock be the same low floor configuration train sets that will be running on City streets in traffic?

If the answers to the above questions are yes I think there will be considerable opposition from everyone along Eglinton Avenue who is not a Streetcar fan. I anticipate an adverse reaction to building a new Gardiner Expressway like barrier down the middle of the road. Isn't having to climb stairs at every station to board a low floor vehicle a little silly?

I am disappointed that no one has provided any answers to my questions.

 

[nfitz]

I am disappointed that no one has provided any answers to my questions.

I didn't really understand them. There's no proposal to build on an elevated structure on Eglinton, and presumably the remaining questions are moot.

 

[BurlOak]

Am I seeing a proposal to build an elevated structure on an exclusive restricted ROW in the middle of Eglinton Ave. E?
If stations are proposed to be spaced 800M apart would vehicles only be allowed to cross the ROW at these points?
Would pedestrians be subject to these same restrictions?
Would the rolling stock be the same low floor configuration train sets that will be running on City streets in traffic?

If the answers to the above questions are yes I think there will be considerable opposition from everyone along Eglinton Avenue who is not a Streetcar fan. I anticipate an adverse reaction to building a new Gardiner Expressway like barrier down the middle of the road. Isn't having to climb stairs at every station to board a low floor vehicle a little silly?

I would guess that Scarborough residents would prefer a Gardiner Expressway above Eglinton than to have a MacMillan Yard or Willowbrook Yard train facility in the middle of Eglinton.

 

[toraerach]

Building Eglinton East at-grade does not preclude elevating it at some point in the future when ridership has grown on the line and the neighbourhoods it serves have changed. At some point, assuming TTC ridership continues to grow and the continues to densify, it may make sense to completely grade separate the line. Until then, we have other transit priorities in this city that are more pressing, including the Eglinton extension to Pearson. It would be nice to build the line completely above/below grade today, and I'm all for it if elevating it doesn't require relocating funds from other projects. However, if elevating the line would impact other projects (remember that even a couple hundred million will have to come from somewhere), it's best to just go ahead with the planned at-grade option. Maybe in a couple decades we'll have enough money and enough of a reason to either tunnel or elevate the line completely. Until then, we'll have a higher capacity transit service running along Eglinton in its own dedicated lanes. That's certainly an improvement over what we have now, and I'm not entirely convinced that the minor speed improvements and increased capacity are worth it in the short term.

As for interlining the Eglinton line with the SRT - it was a nice idea that made sense under the Ford plan, but it's certainly not necessary and provides only marginal benefits for most Scarborough residents. The reconstruction of Kennedy station will improve transit in Scarborough far more than interlining with Eglinton would, and I would rather see any extra or new funds going to the planned SRT extension rather than an elevated structure on Eglinton. As an aside, were there any plans for track connections between the Eglinton LRT, the SRT, and Sheppard LRT under the original Transit City plans? If so, and if the Sheppard LRT is a go, would the SRT extension not make sense from a network perspective?

 

[Emanuel]

I really don't get the love of elevated transit -- to me it is so profoundly visually intrusive, and creates dead spaces underneath.

Again - it depends on the design. A standalone concrete slab is intrusive and creates a dead space; Gardiner fits that description perfectly. Vancouver's SkyTrain is not quite as bad because it is not quite as wide; but it is not top of the line when it comes to streetscape integration. There are better options, actually implemented in other cities.

Hello,

As a point of comparison, the Indian city of Hyderabad has just started building a 70km metro system and is planning on finishing it by 2015, 2016. Due to budgetary and geological constraints, the line will be elevated about 15m above grade and run along the middle of the road. While the tracks will be built on a concrete slab, the whole thing will be supported by 1.85m-wide piers, built on a 2.5m-wide landscaped median. There isn't that much "dead space" under such a structure and the comparison to the Gardiner is not appropriate. That said, Hyderabad is building this primarily along major roads with 40-60m ROW, and the locals are already used to flyovers on some of their busiest roads. When given all the details, I think this approach would be a hard sell in Toronto. On Eglinton an elevated structure may still wipe out a lane of traffic, and stairs and elevators take up a fair bit of space, depending on the elevation of the structure.

 

[Palma]

I would guess that Scarborough residents would prefer a Gardiner Expressway above Eglinton than to have a MacMillan Yard or Willowbrook Yard train facility in the middle of Eglinton.

Why? What else is out there?