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Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

High over view what I saw today for the line with more detail on it in the various threads for the line.

From 427 east was a snail pace at various location where there is only a single lane of traffic. The Scarlett Rd Area bypass road should open this month once all the poles and mess are up on top of the Jersey barriers as looks like that still to be done. All paving done and strip for the road.

Tons of work still to be done for UPX and GO Platforms. GO and UPX using track 3 & 4 as concrete ties being installed for 1 & 2.

Other than flashing missing at the Eglinton entrance east the the rail corridor, the station looks ready. Tubbing barrier in place for protection between cars like Ottawa and other places I have seen them before. Setup for 2 or 3 car trains.
All the fencing is now in place from the station to the portal. They have also added black fencing on the north side leading into the yard.

Keelesdale station been clean up with work taking place for signs for the bus bays with flashing missing all over the place.

New traffic light installed for Caledonia stations with a number of drivers caught between where they are supposed to stop going east including TTC buses and the the side street. Drivers coming off the side street going west hocking at cars that have stop for the red light in front of them at the driveway exit for TTC buses. Was expecting to see some issue once they were in place and not surprise at what I saw. Lots of flashing missing for the bus bay overhang and lots of cleaning up of the whole area..

Since we are in Q2 for this year, seeing service on this line will be end of the year or Q1 2024. Need to look at other areas.

With post phots when I get to them here or the threads where they should be in.
 
nfitz said:
The main building in the ravine perhaps.

But the rules about not being able to build would be subject to whatever the Ontario cabinet wants to do. I'd think the biggest real question is where is the 100-year flood zone.
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No need to worry, they will just move the river!

Jokes aside, I really find it stupid to move the science centre. We need more attractions across the city and they should develop a mix community to help out the neighbourhood. Transit isn't going to be sustainable if they just put all the attractions downtown and condos in the burbs. They could support more local business with expanding the Science Centre.
 
Steve X said:
No need to worry, they will just move the river!

Jokes aside, I really find it stupid to move the science centre. We need more attractions across the city and they should develop a mix community to help out the neighbourhood. Transit isn't going to be sustainable if they just put all the attractions downtown and condos in the burbs. They could support more local business with expanding the Science Centre.
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A good case for putting condos on the rest of Ontario Place - and that massive parking lot for Ontario Place, on the south side of Lakeshore.
 
Steve X said:
No need to worry, they will just move the river!

Jokes aside, I really find it stupid to move the science centre. We need more attractions across the city and they should develop a mix community to help out the neighbourhood. Transit isn't going to be sustainable if they just put all the attractions downtown and condos in the burbs. They could support more local business with expanding the Science Centre.
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Transit City was to eventually have a light rail rapid transit line (Scarborough Malvern LRT) to get to the Toronto Zoo. That was killed. We'll have to wait till the 22nd century for any kind of rapid transit to reach it.

onecity-full-map-final.png
From link.
 
Undead said:
I'd argue it's more sustainable putting attractions downtown because it's easier to access with our current transit system. O-D pairs outside the core require suburb to suburb transit which is our weakest area. Not commenting on the desirability or necessity of relocating the OSC.
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"Sustainable" is a weird choice of word here. Maybe it's easier in the short term, but it's certainly not sustainable to move towards even more people having to make the same type of trip from suburb to downtown.
 
dkt said:
"Sustainable" is a weird choice of word here. Maybe it's easier in the short term, but it's certainly not sustainable to move towards even more people having to make the same type of trip from suburb to downtown.
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That was the OP's phrase, not mine. It's certainly easier to serve suburb to downtown trips the way our system is currently arranged, and expand the infrastructure required for those trips. Suburb to suburb trips are indeed unsustainable because they're dominated by auto travel.

We've already tried to "decentralize" the city with the North York, Etobicoke and Scarborough city centres. That didn't work out well.

It's not the end of the world if the OSC moves downtown; it'll be a better use of space than the Ontario Place parking lots. It won't be the end of the world if it stays and densifies. Again, the existing parking lots aren't a good use of space at the intersection of two rail lines.
 
There was once an almost critical mass of attractions in the Don Mills area including Inn on the Park and the Aga Khan. The OSC is not a one-of in the middle of nowhere. Unfortunately, the planning was a bit autocentric, so while the area has a lovely natural setting, it’s a bit hard to get around….but it’s a public resource with considerable value.

I am deeply skeptical of what will happen to the OSc property. It has value both architecturally and in terms of its landscaping and its harmony with the river valley. And considering that virtually every GTA school kid and every GTA family over the past 50 years has been there at least once, it has associative value in a heritage context.

Doug Ford’s rich developer friends are the only agenda here. For that reason alone, the proposal stinks like old tuna. Even if the subway construction compells a new look at the use of the land, Ford should keep his nose outof the process. He should let the City study in the usual way and let whatever development ideas that generates proceed on their own merit. Bundling OSC into Ontario Place is a Trojan Horse play.

- Paul
 
I might be wrong but wasn't moving the Ontario Science Centre to Ontario place an idea that has nothing to do with Doug Ford. I read multiple articles ad multiple other people calling for the Science Centre to be moved to Ontario Place after the Therme Spa plan was announced. So I don't really understand all of the the Doug Ford hate involving this matter.
 
I don't think the idea originated with Doug Ford but the idea that it has "nothing to do with Doug Ford," seems absurd to me.
(The idea, to be clear, does precede the Therme idea, but there are also reasons it didn't happen.)

As for the hate, I think it's impossible to separate with what is going on with Ontario Place. There - to at least give my own take - he is taking an amazing, publicly owned site and seriously undermining it in the manner in which he privatizing it.
The OSC is also a prime piece of publicly owned land that now stands to be privatized, so it's a kind of 2-for-1 deal.

Depending how cynical you want to be, the worst-case-scenario is that this was always the plan. They make money at Ontario Place and then make even more by selling off primo land at Don Mills/Eglinton. In both instances, the land is made more valuable by a subway that we are building, which was not previously planned to go to either location. In both instances, sites that Ontario taxpayers funded, built by a PC government, both signifiicant architectural achievments, are being sold off without us knowing the details. A cynical take would also include that the Province knew they would get a bad PR rap for "privatizing public space" and so they figured putting the OSC in the pods would appease public concerns in that regard.

The subway/LRT combo would have made it a lot easier for people to get to the Science Centre and that has been a key selling point of the Ontario Line, in particular. So you can decide yourself if you think they knew all along they would do this or whether they are undermining their own rationale for extending the Ontario Line to Eglinton but I don't think it's a very good look either way. And personally, I'm not really inclined to give the Premier benefit of the doubt given the government's approach to transparency on these matters.

To bring it fully back to the LRT - what makes any rapid transit system work is a critical mass of uses. More condos at Don Mills/Eglinton makes the Ontario Line worse than having a mix of uses, including a prime tourist destination (especially versus loading all those uses at one end of the line). I don't see anything to applaud here. But that's IMHO.
 
TJ O'Pootertoot said:
I don't think the idea originated with Doug Ford but the idea that it has "nothing to do with Doug Ford," seems absurd to me.
(The idea, to be clear, does precede the Therme idea, but there are also reasons it didn't happen.)

As for the hate, I think it's impossible to separate with what is going on with Ontario Place. There - to at least give my own take - he is taking an amazing, publicly owned site and seriously undermining it in the manner in which he privatizing it.
The OSC is also a prime piece of publicly owned land that now stands to be privatized, so it's a kind of 2-for-1 deal.

Depending how cynical you want to be, the worst-case-scenario is that this was always the plan. They make money at Ontario Place and then make even more by selling off primo land at Don Mills/Eglinton. In both instances, the land is made more valuable by a subway that we are building, which was not previously planned to go to either location. In both instances, sites that Ontario taxpayers funded, built by a PC government, both signifiicant architectural achievments, are being sold off without us knowing the details. A cynical take would also include that the Province knew they would get a bad PR rap for "privatizing public space" and so they figured putting the OSC in the pods would appease public concerns in that regard.

The subway/LRT combo would have made it a lot easier for people to get to the Science Centre and that has been a key selling point of the Ontario Line, in particular. So you can decide yourself if you think they knew all along they would do this or whether they are undermining their own rationale for extending the Ontario Line to Eglinton but I don't think it's a very good look either way. And personally, I'm not really inclined to give the Premier benefit of the doubt given the government's approach to transparency on these matters.

To bring it fully back to the LRT - what makes any rapid transit system work is a critical mass of uses. More condos at Don Mills/Eglinton makes the Ontario Line worse than having a mix of uses, including a prime tourist destination (especially versus loading all those uses at one end of the line). I don't see anything to applaud here. But that's IMHO.
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Fair enough with the "nothing to do with Doug Ford" point. This is just the first I am hearing of him considering this proposal when I have already been hearing other people proposing moving the Science Centre to Ontario place for months. I also want everyone to keep in mind that regardless of the party, there has been several instances in the past where the provincial government has sold off either (privatized) public companies or sold off land/infrastructure for their own gain (e.g. Liberals and hydro one, Conservatives and 407, etc). Governments are always looking at ways they can balance the budget or bring in money for other projects, even if this is at the expense of taxpayers or the public. Now if the argument is that governments shouldn't be doing this, which I agree to a certain extent, then we should stop focusing on Doug Ford and start generalizing the fact that past decades of provincial governments, regardless of party, have been doing this and it is generally not good for the taxpayer/public. It is very likely if it was a different party in power right now, this still would've come up as a proposal and an issue.

Edit: In my opinion, this is only a good move if the Ontario Science Centre is in need of some major TLC and it would just make sense at that point to move it to a better location. I haven't been there for a while but I remember it still being great over a decade ago.
 
asey20 said:
Fair enough with the "nothing to do with Doug Ford" point. This is just the first I am hearing of him considering this proposal when I have already been hearing other people proposing moving the Science Centre to Ontario place for months. I also want everyone to keep in mind that regardless of the party, there has been several instances in the past where the provincial government has sold off either (privatized) public companies or sold off land/infrastructure for their own gain (e.g. Liberals and hydro one, Conservatives and 407, etc).
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I take your point but I think it's the wrong narrative to compare this to selling off the 407 or hydro one to balance the budget. This has nothing to do with that, really.

This has to be situated alongside the Greenbelt and Highway 413 and the stag and doe and all the other stuff Ford is doing that seems to benefit a small group of private developers. The issue isn't privatization, per se. The entire reason IO exists is to make money oftf the Province's real estate holdings and there is a decent consensus that Ontario Place needed a serious rethink. I think most people (at least I can speak for myself) assumed there would be some private development that would be leveraged for revitalizaing the site. Ideas of what that might look like have varied over the years, no doubt. But this is not that. This is the opposite. This is taxpayers building a subway and a parking lot and rehabilitating lands - literally billions of dollars - to help Therme.

One could take a nicer view of what they are doing to revitalize the public realm but I find it grossly lacking. But that could be subjective. What isn't subjective is a very consistent trend of pro-developer moves by Ford and his clique, each with little transparency and each with little discernible benefit for taxpayers or, frankly, the government. That's what concerns me and, I think, many others.
 
The entire reason IO exists is to make money oftf the Province's real estate holdings and there is a decent consensus that Ontario Place needed a serious rethink. I think most people (at least I can speak for myself) assumed there would be some private development that would be leveraged for revitalizaing the site. Ideas of what that might look like have varied over the years, no doubt. But this is not that. This is the opposite. This is taxpayers building a subway and a parking lot and rehabilitating lands - literally billions of dollars - to help Therme.
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This seems to be a common thing governments do in North America where they help large private corporations with offsetting private project costs and tax incentives in order to encourage development in the area. Otherwise, it is unlikely that Therme would build their Spa development at Ontario Place. Now whether the government is doing this because they do not have enough money to fully build out Ontario Place themselves or whether it's because they think this will save money in development costs, I do not know.

One could take a nicer view of what they are doing to revitalize the public realm but I find it grossly lacking. But that could be subjective. What isn't subjective is a very consistent trend of pro-developer moves by Ford and his clique, each with little transparency and each with little discernible benefit for taxpayers or, frankly, the government. That's what concerns me and, I think, many others.
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I agree. I don't like the Therme development plans for Ontario Place and the poor use of valuable land. However, I am not even sure if this is a plan that "helps Ford's developer friends". Is there proof that this is the case? On the other hand, now that he has announced that the Science Centre will move to Ontario Place, where is the proof that this latest move will help his developer friends? If either move he makes is helping his developer friends that it seems like there is at least some bias here based off of "assumptions" and "trends". This is mainly to say that I don't think mentioning Ford and his developer friends at every point in this forum is constructive. The way this whole scenario played out might've played out the same whether it is the Conservative, Liberal or NDP government in parliament right now.
 
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