Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[rbt]

I agree with the previous comment. Adding China as a comparison in this conversation does not advance the conversation. I have spent enough time travelling around China by train, plane and car to experience the scale of building of their transit systems and to have some appreciation for what has been accomplished. But beyond the technologies, how China has built out, and continues to build out their systems, is not relatable to the western world.

Spending time in Europe on a regular basis (well pre COVID anyways) I would note that there are as many variables in building European transit as here and they often build to completion on timelines we would be familiar with. The Elizabeth line is one, HS2 will be another. My favorite is Thessaloniki in Greece and their ongoing build of a two line subway system. I have been travelling to this city since the late 90's. I believe they entered into construction of Line 1 around 2005/2006 after years and years of proposals and wrangling about routes, financing, etc. etc. The new proposed completion date of Line I is 2023. This is about 10 km's, and almost all underground. One of the major stumbling blocks to completion is archeology. You cannot stick a spade into Greek soil without running into archeology and this has caused .years of delay as the tunneling ran into previously unknown sites. The Elizabeth line dealt with this to a degree, and HS2 is advancing much preliminary work around archeology as construction of this line kicks off.

Can Metrolinx learn and build other infrastructure in a more timely basis? You would think so. And the additional projects along Finch, Eglington West and the Ontario Line will give plenty of scope for them to display their learned expertise.

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Noord line in Amsterdam is another. Construction started in 2003 (planning in the mid '90's) with expected completion in 2011; opened in 2018. Most of it was complete on time except for Centraal station, but opening the line without Centraal would have been kinda pointless; it would be like opening Crosstown without either Yonge or Avenue Road (Cedarvale) stations.

Paris seems to get things done on a more reliable schedule; they also overlap a large number of projects. Delays happen, but they're not as obvious as something opens every year.

 

[nfitz]

This was the first I heard that water mains/sewers were upgraded during the construction. I assume this was all part of the Crosstown budget?

It's the first time I've heard that Renforth and Eglinton was "well into Mississauga".

Renforth and Eglinton - all 4 corners - are in Toronto, not Mississauga. On the south side, Toronto stretches almost 3 km west of Renforth. Even on the north the boundary with Mississauga is about 200 metres west of Renforth!

It's a bit concerning that Verster is so unfamiliar with the city and/or the project that he doesn't even know which municipality one of his key projects is in! And even his staff (who presumably wrote the script) aren't aware.

 

[evandyk]

It might not be in Mississauga, but Renforth and Eglinton definitely isn't in Toronto except in the most technical sense...

 

[ARG1]

It's the first time I've heard that Renforth and Eglinton was "well into Mississauga".

Renforth and Eglinton - all 4 corners - are in Toronto, not Mississauga. On the south side, Toronto stretches almost 3 km west of Renforth. Even on the north the boundary with Mississauga is about 200 metres west of Renforth!

It's a bit concerning that Verster is so unfamiliar with the city and/or the project that he doesn't even know which municipality one of his key projects is in! And even his staff (who presumably wrote the script) aren't aware.

North of Eglinton, Renforth is actually the border between Mississauga and Toronto, so the north west corner is in Mississauga.

Now while the line technically doesn't go into Mississauga, its still a transfer to the Mississauga Transitway, so saying that its bringing rapid transit directly from Toronto to Mississauga would in a way be accurate.

 

[felix123]

It's the first time I've heard that Renforth and Eglinton was "well into Mississauga".

Renforth and Eglinton - all 4 corners - are in Toronto, not Mississauga. On the south side, Toronto stretches almost 3 km west of Renforth. Even on the north the boundary with Mississauga is about 200 metres west of Renforth!

It's a bit concerning that Verster is so unfamiliar with the city and/or the project that he doesn't even know which municipality one of his key projects is in! And even his staff (who presumably wrote the script) aren't aware.

I completely agree - I thought it was funny that Verster doubled down on the error by saying "well into" Mississauga

 

[Richard White]

The streetcars run 24hrs because they don’t have stations, so the cost is just the operators and some end stations. Also why the subway is replaced with an overnight bus. Running the crosstown 24hrs would mean keeping all the stations open for the few people riding it.

The 310 runs overnight into Union Station, the 304 runs into Dundas West and Broadview while the 306 runs into Dundas West and Main Street. The Crosstown can be run overnight but there would have to shut down the stations for security reasons. Overnight, the mentally ill and the homeless use the TTC as a substitute for the shelter system which can cause problems for open stations overnight.

 

[smallspy]

Does anyone know if this ancillary infrastructure work is common for European transit projects as well?

I don't know about elsewhere, but in Toronto it generally has been, historically.

Dan

 

[nfitz]

North of Eglinton, Renforth is actually the border between Mississauga and Toronto, so the north west corner is in Mississauga.

It might have been, many years ago, before they realigned Renforth and Eglinton. But after they realigned everything, over 50 years ago, there's almost 200 metres from the intersection, west to the boundary. Renforth only becomes the boundary, at that curve, between Matheson and the 401.

I've drawn the approximate location of the boundary below.

 

[JasonParis]

I think Mississauga and Toronto were once trying to make a land switch for the border to make more sense, but the province declined the idea.

 

[Steve X]

North of Eglinton, Renforth is actually the border between Mississauga and Toronto, so the north west corner is in Mississauga.

Now while the line technically doesn't go into Mississauga, its still a transfer to the Mississauga Transitway, so saying that its bringing rapid transit directly from Toronto to Mississauga would in a way be accurate.

It's Toronto cause you can see all street name signs are TO style along with the traffic lights and zebra pattern pedestrian crossing markings. A Mississauga style intersection would look different.

 

[Amare]

I think Mississauga and Toronto were once trying to make a land switch for the border to make more sense, but the province declined the idea.

Let me guess, Mike Harris refused an idea that actually made common sense? Wouldnt be surprised if this was during his era.

After all, that's why we're getting this project built 25 years after the fact.

 

[trtcttc]

So why are the Chinese and the Europeans building transit at a rate unheard of in the western world? I will give Toronto some credit tho, The transit projects happening in the city all over the city at the same time right now is actually the largest in North America. But the Eglinton crosstown has been an annoyance since the start in 2011. I'm just saying that it shouldn't have taken this long.

We can definitely build transit faster and cheaper. However, there’s not like a simple one liner as to why. I found the transit cost project at NYU has some good data and studies on this if you’re interested. I was surprised when I looked at the data that cities that have great transit systems doesn’t necessarily build them cheaply. Hong Kong and Singapore are amongst the most expensive in the world.

 

[Steve X]

We can definitely build transit faster and cheaper. However, there’s not like a simple one liner as to why. I found the transit cost project at NYU has some good data and studies on this if you’re interested. I was surprised when I looked at the data that cities that have great transit systems doesn’t necessarily build them cheaply. Hong Kong and Singapore are amongst the most expensive in the world.

They might be expensive but at least they actually look decent. I mean look at the TYSSE stations. The walls are leaking water and is all patched up on opening day. I don’t know how is that even acceptable. At least paint it.

 

[EYorker]

A question for anyone in the know about the signalling system. Perhaps @smallspy would know this.

With ATC/ATO being in the tunneled section, presumably the line will be capable of single track operation, and/or bi-directional running if there had to be a track closure for maintenance or for instance, a broken rail or part of the OCS? I realize they've been running bi-directional testing on the surface section. But is the surface section capable of the same once the line goes into revenue service? For instance, if one direction of track was blocked for whatever reason. Could they run single track operation until the track is cleared?

 

[smallspy]

A question for anyone in the know about the signalling system. Perhaps @smallspy would know this.

With ATC/ATO being in the tunneled section, presumably the line will be capable of single track operation, and/or bi-directional running if there had to be a track closure for maintenance or for instance, a broken rail or part of the OCS? I realize they've been running bi-directional testing on the surface section. But is the surface section capable of the same once the line goes into revenue service? For instance, if one direction of track was blocked for whatever reason. Could they run single track operation until the track is cleared?

There are a lot of variables that don't include the signal system, unfortunately.

On the TYSSE, the TTC has designed a system to have separated power feeds and cuts track-to-track, and have built doorways built into the cross passages between tunnels. There, they can operate both directions on a single track even with the other one shut down for work. (And in fact, have done this several times already.) The ventilation system is also sectionalized and can be operated one track at a time if necessary.

The TTC is also working on updating much of the older portions of the YUS to this same standard (and indeed, they've done about two-thirds of it by now), but there is some concern that it won't be possible to operate on one track with work progressing on the other as there isn't a solid wall/barrier between the two tracks.

I don't know a lot of the specifics of the Crosstown just yet, but I can't help but assume that within the tunnels they will be building it to a similar standard as the subway. The signalling system is a different system from a different vendor, but is just as capable, so on that front it should be possible in theory. The real question will be with the power feeds and cuts and cross passages. Up on the surface, it looks as if the line is powered the same as the streetcar system, with single feeds power both tracks.

Dan