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Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

I am curious about one thing. Is the Eglinton LRT - SRT link up conditional on the Eglinton LRT being fully grade separated to run successfully?

Many here talk about how the decision to grade separate the non-central portions could be reversed. But does this hold true when the two lines are linked?

I would think that the frequencies at which the whole line will be operating will make grade separation sensible.
 
I say take the TTC out of Transit Master Plans completely. Hand the planning reins over to Metrolinx, and let them coordinate it. Heck, they're already funding it, they should be able to control the projects themselves. Once the routes, the priorities, and the general design have been determined, give the TTC engineers and planners responsibility over the detailed design.

Doing this would also further insulate the transit planning process from municipal baffoons with their own anti-transit agenda.

Not just planning. I'd like to see Metrolinx take over operations for the subway network and any fully grade-separated LRTs (like Eglinton) that are built. I firmly believe that this is the only way we'll get proper integration between GO and the subway network. This is also the only way we'll get sensible investment for the billions that are about to be spent on transit network expansion.

I am willing to bet that if Metrolinx had been given the billions and a clean sheet, we'd have seen nothing like Transit City. Billions on LRTs that shave mere minutes for most riders while a whole bevy of rail corridors, that could bring millions of riders annually to their destinations in half the time, lie unused. Sadly, Metrolinx is more rubber stamp, than regional planning and co-ordination authority.
 
I think that local planning is more in tune with day to day transit operation. However, Metrolinx (GO Transit) should definitely be working with the TTC to tie regional transportation with that of local transit.

Metrolinx should be in charge of inter municipal transit while local authorities provide short distance travel.

This however might mean that Metrolinx can probably take over the subway network which in Toronto seems to be a long distance travel method rather than the hop on / hop off use it sees in New York or London. The TTC would continue to operate streetcar / LRT and bus service.

An electrified GO added to the existing subway network can give Toronto significant transit expansion by simply tying the two together and providing all day service for GO.
 
I am curious about one thing. Is the Eglinton LRT - SRT link up conditional on the Eglinton LRT being fully grade separated to run successfully?

Many here talk about how the decision to grade separate the non-central portions could be reversed. But does this hold true when the two lines are linked?

I would think that the frequencies at which the whole line will be operating will make grade separation sensible.

I have thought about this as well. Given the projected ridership when the SRT is included, it certainly does push into the upper ranges of what at-grade LRT can handle. I wouldn't be surprised if we saw some sort of hybrid proposal though, where it ducked underneath intersections, and the stations were located underneath the intersection itself. I wouldn't mind this at all, as it would be a nice compromise between fully at-grade and tunnelled.

My personal preference would be one of two options:

1) Elevated, either in-median or on one side of the road. All the advantages of grade separation, without the added expense of tunnelling.

2) Trenched in-median. That way it could be decked over in select locations to give a pleasant boulevard, even if the decking over was done in phases after the project is complete. Normally a trench in the middle of an avenue would be an eyesore, but Eglinton East is such an eyesore anyway, no one would really notice. Naturally though the walls would need to be concrete and vertical, the sloped grass thing clearly wouldn't work. Again, grade-separation without the expense of tunnelling.

Not just planning. I'd like to see Metrolinx take over operations for the subway network and any fully grade-separated LRTs (like Eglinton) that are built. I firmly believe that this is the only way we'll get proper integration between GO and the subway network. This is also the only way we'll get sensible investment for the billions that are about to be spent on transit network expansion.

Good idea. Only thing is though then Metrolinx would pretty much have to fund local transit as well (or at least set up some kind of funding scheme), because the only reason the TTC even comes close to breaking even is the revenue generated from the subway network. If they had to fund the bus network without that revenue, they'd be toast. And if you had that funding arrangement for the TTC, you'd have to have it for all GTA transit agencies. I would think that would be where the NDP's 50% operating subsidy would come in quite handy.

I am willing to bet that if Metrolinx had been given the billions and a clean sheet, we'd have seen nothing like Transit City. Billions on LRTs that shave mere minutes for most riders while a whole bevy of rail corridors, that could bring millions of riders annually to their destinations in half the time, lie unused. Sadly, Metrolinx is more rubber stamp, than regional planning and co-ordination authority.

That's part of what I was hoping for :p. Come up with something that actually makes sense from a regional transit perspective, instead of from a social planning perspective.

Although part of me does worry about Metrolinx getting into a Robert Moses-esque "I can do whatever I want" mindset, where the public opinion means nothing to them, especially because they would only be accountable to the Premier. But given that option over what we currently have (pointless political bickering), maybe a Robert Moses-esque mentality wouldn't be a bad thing, as long as it was directed towards transit and not highway expansion.
 
An electrified GO added to the existing subway network can give Toronto significant transit expansion by simply tying the two together and providing all day service for GO.

This is the key. Metrolinx' #1 priority in my opinion should be to electrify the GO network, and add more stations inside of Toronto. Get the long haul trips off of the subway, so that they can cater to inter-neighbourhood travel patterns, instead of inter-city travel patterns.

Metrolinx must still obey the provincial buffoons.

At least the province speaks with one clear and concise voice. The municipalities are a gaggle of conflicting interests and views.
 
I think that local planning is more in tune with day to day transit operation. However, Metrolinx (GO Transit) should definitely be working with the TTC to tie regional transportation with that of local transit.

Honestly, the TTC is too pig-headed to work successfully with Metrolinx. And I don't even think they are necessarily wrong to be that way. Their job is to service Torontonians first. And they are largely subsidized by the city's residents. However, the subway network does function as a long-haul network with regional implications. This is why Metrolinx should be running it.

Metrolinx should be in charge of inter municipal transit while local authorities provide short distance travel.

This is what I'm getting at. Let the TTC become a bus and streetcar service. This is also the biggest money loser at the TTC. Spinning it off frees the subway network of an anchor. And the city can finally have a real debate on levels of service wrt the bus network.

Metrolinx might also be more amenable to fare by distance, expansion into the 905, connections to the GO heavy rail network, and more GO stations inside the 416, etc.

This however might mean that Metrolinx can probably take over the subway network which in Toronto seems to be a long distance travel method rather than the hop on / hop off use it sees in New York or London. The TTC would continue to operate streetcar / LRT and bus service.

An electrified GO added to the existing subway network can give Toronto significant transit expansion by simply tying the two together and providing all day service for GO.

Not just that. We're sitting here arguing over saving Malvernites 10 mins with a billion dollar LRT on Sheppard when there's a viable rail line right through the community that could save the majority of Malvernites heading to the core an hour or more, for half the price. Put all the rail lines under one management authority. Give them the money and watch what happens.

At least Metrolinx cares about moving people. Toronto politicians care about using transit as a development tool to gentrify areas more than they do about actually getting people to where they want to go. The biggest thing Metrolinx could do for Toronto isn't electrification. It's opening more GO rail stations and GO lines. Most of Toronto is no more than 5 km from a rail corridor. Build more GO lines and you will change the face of this city. Would we be discussing LRT this much if places like Malvern and Agincourt had a GO train passing through every 15 mins?

I wouldn't mind this at all, as it would be a nice compromise between fully at-grade and tunnelled.

Wouldn't this be one stomach-churning roller coaster of a ride?


Good idea. Only thing is though then Metrolinx would pretty much have to fund local transit as well (or at least set up some kind of funding scheme), because the only reason the TTC even comes close to breaking even is the revenue generated from the subway network. If they had to fund the bus network without that revenue, they'd be toast.

First off, I am arguing for Metrolinx to take over the subway and long-distance LRT networks. I am not suggesting that Metrolinx take over the whole TTC.

Next, I would argue that our current setup works against expansion. Transit is seen as a money pit, yet it's not the subway network that's the problem, it's the bus network. If this were the corporate world, shareholders would be demanding that the bus 'division' be spun off. And I think that's a great idea. It sets us up for steady expansion of the rail network. Torontonians will face some pain through reduced and more expensive bus services. But this is actually a good thing. It forces proper management of the bus network. Not the ridiculous setup now where 3 85s show up at your stop at once and you don't see another bus for 15 mins. It forces rationalization of resources. And it encourages densification. Less dense neighbourhood = worse bus service.


And if you had that funding arrangement for the TTC, you'd have to have it for all GTA transit agencies. I would think that would be where the NDP's 50% operating subsidy would come in quite handy.

Politically, this will get very interesting. Reduce to bus and streetcar, the TTC would be a lot, lot smaller. It might actually be politically easier to sell the argument that this smaller TTC should get the same subsidies as every other transit agency in Ontario.


That's part of what I was hoping for :p. Come up with something that actually makes sense from a regional transit perspective, instead of from a social planning perspective.

Although part of me does worry about Metrolinx getting into a Robert Moses-esque "I can do whatever I want" mindset, where the public opinion means nothing to them, especially because they would only be accountable to the Premier. But given that option over what we currently have (pointless political bickering), maybe a Robert Moses-esque mentality wouldn't be a bad thing, as long as it was directed towards transit and not highway expansion.

Bingo. Just look at what's on the table. Think of a decade and a half from now when most of this is built. Ask yourself if the region got its money's worth. And if you don't think it did, ask yourself why. For me the region will have wasted billions, not accomplished much and it's not because Transit city didn't get built, it's because we never had a competent authority that could herd cats.

This is the key. Metrolinx' #1 priority in my opinion should be to electrify the GO network, and add more stations inside of Toronto. Get the long haul trips off of the subway, so that they can cater to inter-neighbourhood travel patterns, instead of inter-city travel patterns.

Like it or not the subway will be part of the long-haul for a very, very long time to come in Toronto. This is exactly why Metrolinx should be managing it and not the TTC. The subway network should be aiming to complement the GO rail network. Sheppard West is a good start. Now imagine getting Sheppard to Agincourt. I'd suggest that if at least does this, it might be "good enough", even if it never reaches STC.

At least the province speaks with one clear and concise voice. The municipalities are a gaggle of conflicting interests and views.

It's not their fault. Those municipal politicians have to represent local interests. It's the province's job to be managing competing municipal interests. And they've failed miserably at doing so.
 
I am curious about one thing. Is the Eglinton LRT - SRT link up conditional on the Eglinton LRT being fully grade separated to run successfully?

Many here talk about how the decision to grade separate the non-central portions could be reversed. But does this hold true when the two lines are linked?

I would think that the frequencies at which the whole line will be operating will make grade separation sensible.

The planned train lengths on the rebuilt SRT will require full grade separation. Within the current funding envelope I believe the choice is between a linked Eglinton-SRT or unlinked Eglinton-SRT (but still linked with a full junction under Kennedy station) and with extension to Malvern (fully grade separated).
 
At least Metrolinx cares about moving people. Toronto politicians care about using transit as a development tool to gentrify areas more than they do about actually getting people to where they want to go.

I agree it's unfortunate that we've wasted billions on Spadina and Sheppard.
 
I agree it's unfortunate that we've wasted billions on Spadina and Sheppard.

so a subway line serving one of Canada's largest universities (York University) isn't doing more than just merely gentrifying the area? It's not "actually getting people to where they want to go"?
 
so a subway line serving one of Canada's largest universities (York University) isn't doing more than just merely gentrifying the area? It's not "actually getting people to where they want to go"?

The line going to York, sure, it's going to be heavily used. I think people are instead opposed to extending the line past York into Vaughan.
 
Thank goodness for councillors who are focused on local transportation rather than long distance transportation because the TTC isn't meant to provide similar function to GO, VIA, or Greyhound. They are a local transit agency like Oakville Transit, Mississauga Transit, etc. The fare is fixed fare across the city to fiscally it makes no sense to serve the longer commutes with special treatment without the double fare paid on rocket routes. On some lines it makes sense for them to install high capacity systems, and on some it doesn't. GO Transit is the longer commute transit agency.
 
so a subway line serving one of Canada's largest universities (York University) isn't doing more than just merely gentrifying the area? It's not "actually getting people to where they want to go"?

Veering offtopic here...

If there's one thing that people on forums like this are good at doing it is overestimating the patronage levels of proposed and theoretical projects.

The York Region and TTC studies projected 5,000 peak hour passengers passing through (and not necessarily disembarking at) York University station for both directions north and south combined.

That shouldn't be surprising once you realize that there are 50,000 people max on campus on any given day, that there's no 9-5 rush like there is in the CBD and you're not going to get 100% modal share for transit.
 
The York Region and TTC studies projected 5,000 peak hour passengers passing through (and not necessarily disembarking at) York University station for both directions north and south combined.
Metrolinx forecast 7,200 as the peak AM load. This is more than the existing Sheppard subway, and almost as much as the Yonge extension. For total ridership it's higher than the Yonge extension - presumably because of the higher loads outside the peak hour.

That shouldn't be surprising once you realize that there are 50,000 people max on campus on any given day, that there's no 9-5 rush like there is in the CBD and you're not going to get 100% modal share for transit.
Personally, I find that part of town an absolute nightmare to drive in during rush-hour. And transit was little better, as it would be stuck too ... though the transitway from Downsview to York really helps.

It might not have the biggest peak-hour ridership, but York should have a steady flow of people throughout the day, and will particularly help increase off-peak use of the TTC. The trick is to look at total day, rather than peak hour.
 
A rapid transit line doesn't necessarily have to be completely grade separated. The non/central parts of Eglinton could be operated like the Edmonton or Calgary LRTs. They have at-grade crossings with complete signal priority over cars and they run every few minutes at rush hour. WRT Metrolinx, I also think they should have a lot more power and authority over rapid transit. The city council driven process has failed miserably the last few decades.

Not just that. We're sitting here arguing over saving Malvernites 10 mins with a billion dollar LRT on Sheppard when there's a viable rail line right through the community that could save the majority of Malvernites heading to the core an hour or more, for half the price. Put all the rail lines under one management authority. Give them the money and watch what happens.
Totally agree. But Torontonians (including elected leaders) won't wake up to the possibilities of regional rail until proper regional rail is actually built. That's something that has to be driven by Metrolinx and will transform the way we get around the city if it happens.
 

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