Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[smallspy]

Rural roads don't have storm drains, they just have swales on the side to collect and funnel away water. Storm drain implies an actual pipe, which I'm saying we don't need.

Except that this would be built in Toronto. A ditch and swale will eventually lead to a stream - that will not happen in Toronto. Water run-off needs to lead somewhere (preferably a treatment plant), ergo you need to build storm drains.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[gweed123]

Except that this would be built in Toronto. A ditch and swale will eventually lead to a stream - that will not happen in Toronto. Water run-off needs to lead somewhere (preferably a treatment plant), ergo you need to build storm drains.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

There are many instances where open ditches and swales lead to a city storm drain. Very few open ditches in neighbourhoods lead to streams, most lead to controlled storm drains. It was very common in 1950s and 1960s subdivisions to have swales in the front yard that lead to 1 or 2 actual storm sewers in the neighbourhood. The vast majority of the streets that cross the Richview corridor are equipped with storm sewers. The swales will only have to bring the water there. Not to mention that since most the Richview corridor would still be permeable surfaces, these swales would be dry most of the time, and would only actually carry water in storm events.

It's not rocket science. In fact, it's pretty basic engineering. I know how this concept works. I have a swale in my front yard that leads to a storm catch basin at the end of the block. Half the block drains towards the west storm CB, half the block drains towards the east CB.

 

[Ravager]

I find this project a engineering nightmare. Dont get me wrong I love what they are doing.

They will hit old pipes and old lines from the past.

How would they deal with these issues?

 

[gweed123]

I find this project a engineering nightmare. Dont get me wrong I love what they are doing.

They will hit old pipes and old lines from the past.

How would they deal with these issues?

I don't think it'll be as bad as you think it may be. Much of Eglinton was still in farmland in the late 40s and early 50s (Eglinton west of Scarlett was still called Richview Sideroad), and any pipes laid after that are probably pretty well documented. People tend to think of Eglinton as being 'central Toronto', but not that long ago it was considered to be the edge of Toronto.

If they were digging in downtown, where development history stretches back hundreds of years, then yes a case could be made for there being undocumented pipes, etc. But around Eglinton I would imagine there would be many fewer surprises, at least from the perspective of unknown pipes.

 

[TransitPolicyChanger]

There are many instances where open ditches and swales lead to a city storm drain. Very few open ditches in neighbourhoods lead to streams, most lead to controlled storm drains. It was very common in 1950s and 1960s subdivisions to have swales in the front yard that lead to 1 or 2 actual storm sewers in the neighbourhood. The vast majority of the streets that cross the Richview corridor are equipped with storm sewers. The swales will only have to bring the water there. Not to mention that since most the Richview corridor would still be permeable surfaces, these swales would be dry most of the time, and would only actually carry water in storm events.

It's not rocket science. In fact, it's pretty basic engineering. I know how this concept works. I have a swale in my front yard that leads to a storm catch basin at the end of the block. Half the block drains towards the west storm CB, half the block drains towards the east CB.

You cannot construct a new roadway without new catch basins. Additionally, because you are converting from an absorptive medium (grass and plantings) to a hard surface (asphalt) design checks would have to be completed to ensure the surrounding systems can handle the extra water. As smallspy said, in Toronto or any other urban city, you have to treat this as a new road and stormwater management is a big part of the cost.

This goes the same for adding a right lane for a BRT-lite setup. The storm drains will have to be moved, the entire pavement re-graded, and other site work. Sounds real simple, pave a roadway in an open field and it will be cheap, but these other issues must be accounted for and will increase the costs to some degree.

 

[gweed123]

You cannot construct a new roadway without new catch basins. Additionally, because you are converting from an absorptive medium (grass and plantings) to a hard surface (asphalt) design checks would have to be completed to ensure the surrounding systems can handle the extra water. As smallspy said, in Toronto or any other urban city, you have to treat this as a new road and stormwater management is a big part of the cost.

This goes the same for adding a right lane for a BRT-lite setup. The storm drains will have to be moved, the entire pavement re-graded, and other site work. Sounds real simple, pave a roadway in an open field and it will be cheap, but these other issues must be accounted for and will increase the costs to some degree.

I consulted with one of the engineers at my office (good part about working in a planning/engineering office, haha), and he said that you could get away with ditches in some spots in Ottawa (a lot of the Southwest Transitway extension through the Greenbelt was done with ditches), but the standards in Toronto are different. He ballparked around $20 million/km for the new roadway, which isn't significantly more expensive than what I had quoted.

Sorry for the confusion, I was just looking at recent Transitway projects in Ottawa and I assumed the same thing would apply in Toronto.

 

[Ravager]

Thanks for those insights!

Funny thing is I lived very close to Eglinton and Allen Expressway.

At that time it was very multicultural. Especially Italian stores that I was visited with my mom.

Recently a visit to the area has made me very sad. Very run down. No life like there was before.


Hopefully this project will change the outlook of Eglinton.Ave in a positive way!!

 

[W. K. Lis]

I have been seeing construction workers taking core samples along Eglinton Avenue for the underground (EA passed) portion of the LRT. I hope they find the gold, silver, or diamonds needed to pay for the extra cost to put the entire LRT underground, unlikely.

 

[DC83]

I have been seeing construction workers taking core samples along Eglinton Avenue for the underground (EA passed) portion of the LRT. I hope they find the gold, silver, or diamonds needed to pay for the extra cost to put the entire LRT underground, unlikely.

LOL only a lil delayed?

From the City's website:

Update – January 2011
As the Environmental Assessment of the Eglinton Crosstown route has been completed, work now begins on the design of the tunnel and stations. Soil samples are being taken along the tunneled section to assist in this design. More information.

http://www.toronto.ca/involved/projects/eglinton_crosstown_lrt/index.htm

Quick Question: When is Estimated Date of Completion? Wikipedia says 2020!? Is that accurate?

 

[rbt]

Quick Question: When is Estimated Date of Completion? Wikipedia says 2020!? Is that accurate?

Yes, and it isn't far off construction times for similarly sized projects in the western world (London's Crosstown Rail line). Both have about the same amount of tunnelling and are roughly 10 years to first useful trips.

Thankfully, Spadina, the new Georgetown corridor, Union Station, and other improvements will be completed in the mean time.

 

[W. K. Lis]

LOL only a lil delayed?

From the City's website:


http://www.toronto.ca/involved/projects/eglinton_crosstown_lrt/index.htm

Quick Question: When is Estimated Date of Completion? Wikipedia says 2020!? Is that accurate?

First phase scheduled to open in 2016. By "first phase", they mean the underground portion that already passed the environmental assessment. The portion east of Laird must go through an environmental assessment, which means wasting 4 years to until after the next election before that construction can even start to appease our current mayor.

 

[rbt]

The portion east of Laird must go through an environmental assessment, which means wasting 4 years to until after the next election before that construction can even start to appease our current mayor.

It will be 3+ years before TBMs are available to tunnel that portion; unless you are proposing that we buy another 4 TBMs for Eglinton?

 

[nfitz]

First phase scheduled to open in 2016. By "first phase", they mean the underground portion that already passed the environmental assessment.

Where do you get the 2016 date from? That was the date for the first phase back until early 2010 when McGuinty deferred some of the Transit City lines until after 2020 (Jane to Pearson on Eglinton for example), and bumped back the SRT and Finch West by 5 years. I thought it was all 2020 with the Metrolinx 5 in 10 plan from early 2010 to the new accord with the city. I thought that since they had the new accord they had discussed that it may be possible to open some of it earlier (as they've got more money to do work earlier now with the transfer of the province's Sheppard East money) but that they hadn't released any time frames. (the best answer from all this ... is whatever date is around will likely change!)

The portion east of Laird must go through an environmental assessment, which means wasting 4 years to until after the next election before that construction can even start to appease our current mayor.

It's only part of a class EA rather than an individual EA, and with the streamlining that was done for Transit EAs it won't take 4 years to get an EA complete - should be less than 12 months. I'd expect the biggest hold-up is that the City is going to freak when Metrolinx presents the bill for cancelling Transit City (which I assume they are waiting to do after the election) ... and Metrolinx may not want to go too far on a new EA until if it sees if City Council is going to go along with paying $100+ million to get out of the old Transit City plans.

 

[MisterF]

Except that this would be built in Toronto. A ditch and swale will eventually lead to a stream - that will not happen in Toronto. Water run-off needs to lead somewhere (preferably a treatment plant), ergo you need to build storm drains.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

Storm water doesn't get treated at treatment plants. That would overload the plants every time it rains. Actually a major concern in a lot of places is storm water leaking into sewage pipes, which puts pressure on sewage treatment capacity. In newly developed areas storm water goes through man made ponds to control flooding and erosion. In the city it's harder since older storm sewers lead straight into rivers and lakes, but in recent years there have been efforts to control storm water. An example (and a pretty spectacular one) is Sherbourne Commons.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

And there are 3 giant cisterns and a storm water storage tunnel at the Western waterfront between High Park and the Ex:

AoD