Toronto BMO Field Renovations | ?m | ?s | MLSE | Gensler

[gei]

If TFC make the playoffs it would be interesting if they held a few playoff games inside the SkyDome. Regardless of how well it functions as a soccer stadium, the skydome has an incredible atmosphere when there's 50,000+ in there.

MLSE has to be careful though because there mere suggestion would bring about all kinds of bit**ing and moaning from many typical Torontonians (wah wah, all MLSE cares about is making money, etc etc).

Personally I would love to see a a playoff game in there...

 

[isaidso]

Any full stadium tends to have great atmosphere. Skydome manages a good atmosphere when full despite itself. BMO Field, on the other hand is very fan friendly. Sports on this continent aren't geared enough to fans, but rather to the interests of owners. Any move, even a playoff game, to Skydome should be taken with a dose of worry. The owners may opt for more revenue potential there, over what soccer fans want.

Soccer fans should be wary, and push for capacity expansion at BMO rather than experimenting with Skydome. Skydome has been a disaster for pro football fans. That stadium, and its owners have run Toronto's football team into the ground. They just care about cash and will toss TFC aside if something that is potentially more lucrative comes along.

Which is why, in the same quote of mine that you shortened I said:

I actually didn't read your whole post, but my comment was meant as another voice in agreement with that position.

 

[Jarrek]

If Toronto ever gets past the Group Stage of the CONCACAF Champions League, you can bet that it will utilize the SkyDome for any remaining matches. Because playing in February at BMO would be next to impossible.

 

[Marko]

I posted these last year on bigsoccer when some expansion talk began.

It could be done in stages and remain consistent with what is in place - it all depends on how large they want to go and how quickly - but I really don't think anything above 35,000 make much sense. It's better to max out and fill a stadium (ith waiting lists if need be) than to overbuild and have empty seats. There WILL be times when interest wanes and big patches of empty seats are the best way to kill atmosphere.

Step 1) Add a north stand to mirror the south one. +2,500~

Step 2) Replace the east stand with a mirror of the 2 deck west stand. +6,000~

Step 3) Increase the south stand/add a second deck. +4,000~

Ideally step 1 would maintain a beer garden at the top, as this is one of the nicer elements of the existing stadium. Maybe even do it at both the north+south ends.

If increasing to 32,500~ isn't enough, then my proposal would be to keep only the 2 level west stand and make it into a western endzone and re-align the field goin more E-W and not the current N-S. There is room to rip down everything else and create new stands along the new sidelines along the north and south sides. If each of these are n the 16~18,000 range then the total stadium capacity is in the mid 40's.

Personally, I think this could still make sense even just to get to 35,000~ as it would allow for more luxurious stands, concourses and a lot more private boxes. Outdoor concerts are more feasible as well.

 

[TrickyRicky]

I agree with Marko. They really only need to expand in increments of a few thousands up to a final capacity not exceeding 40,000. As for the winter, January and February seem dubious. However, there are many nations that play on grass in Europe during the winter where conditions are no different than Toronto in December or March.

 

[Automation Gallery]

Although i like what they are doing with the new addition of grass and also eventually expanding to 30/35K, I still say, sell it to the Argos, and build a brand spanking new 38.000 seat Euro-Style soccer stadium on the Portlands.
3-4 big stadiums is not unheard of in cities of this size around the world.

 

[Marko]

Although i like what they are doing with the new addition of grass and also eventually expanding to 30/35K, I still say, sell it to the Argos, and build a brand spanking new 38.000 seat Euro-Style soccer stadium on the Portlands.
3-4 big stadiums is not unheard of in cities of this size around the world.

Being a stadium nut I do like the sound of that, but there's no way the Argos can afford it - especially if there are no other major tenants like an MLS team.

The Olympics would be the only way there would be sufficient financing in place for that sort of thing and even then, they were talking Hamilton for a new soccer (eventually CFL) venue. The main stadium (80K) would then be used to lure an NFL team.

I hate to say it, but unless some billionaire feels like buying the Argos and spending silly money to avoid paying taxes on other holdings, the team will forever be at the mercy of others in terms of a home stadium. They have a swetheart deal at the Rogers Centre and might as well stick with it.

 

[gei]

Increasing the size of the east stands would block the view of the skyline

 

[TOareaFan]

I posted these last year on bigsoccer when some expansion talk began.

It could be done in stages and remain consistent with what is in place - it all depends on how large they want to go and how quickly - but I really don't think anything above 35,000 make much sense. It's better to max out and fill a stadium (ith waiting lists if need be) than to overbuild and have empty seats. There WILL be times when interest wanes and big patches of empty seats are the best way to kill atmosphere.

Yes, slow and steady makes the most sense.

Step 1) Add a north stand to mirror the south one. +2,500~

If possible, I would build this on stilts so that the stand was up and over both the beer garden and those party suites....leaving in tact a couple of the unique aspects of the stadium....perhaps the buildings that house those party suites could actually support the ends of the new stands (don't know....I am not a building technologist)......this might even give the beer garden some cover on less than ideal conditions.

Step 2) Replace the east stand with a mirror of the 2 deck west stand. +6,000~

This would seem to be where they would bet their best bang for the buck.....I would think this might be the first to happen because if they mirror it exactly they not only get additional seats but also another club section and more suites (where the real money is made).

Step 3) Increase the south stand/add a second deck. +4,000~

This is, as you note, the last part likely to happen.....the cost relative to the yield (end seats, particularly in a second level) are likely to sell at the lowest cost and produce a longer pay back time......perhaps, as in the east expansion, if they put a row of boxes in there it might help the pay back.

If increasing to 32,500~ isn't enough, then my proposal would be to keep only the 2 level west stand and make it into a western endzone and re-align the field goin more E-W and not the current N-S. There is room to rip down everything else and create new stands along the new sidelines along the north and south sides. If each of these are n the 16~18,000 range then the total stadium capacity is in the mid 40's.

E-W fields (particularly in spring and late summer/fall) present real challenges in outdoor stadiums as the sun is low in the sky and can affect the play.....not impossible but I think a N-S field allignment is better.

The other advantage to any expansion (as you point out) is that it gives the stadium a concert niche that it currently does not have. As an outdoor venue it really does not have enough seats to attract acts away from the superior venue across the street.......with 30 - 35k there may be acts that would play there....not sure, however, how the move to grass affects this.

 

[Marko]

Increasing the size of the east stands would block the view of the skyline

For much of the east stand, yeah. It's part of the reason I like the idea of re-aligning so that the open side of a u-shaped stadium faces east, towards the city. The problem then becomes the late day sun, which is now to one side of the field and affects both teams more or less equally.

Keep in mind that some savings will be found by using the existing locker room facilities already in place - so the new north+south stand could be strictly seating only or w/ private boxes. The same scoreboard and such would simply be relocated to the east stand and there's a possibility for up to 3 beer gardens, with the corners on the west end and above the east supporters section (using the same size/shape to maintain feel).

Here's what I was thinking:

 

[nfitz]

If Toronto ever gets past the Group Stage of the CONCACAF Champions League, you can bet that it will utilize the SkyDome for any remaining matches. Because playing in February at BMO would be next to impossible.

That's a big IF. And this year (2009-10), if they'd made it, there aren't even any Feburary games scheduled. The quarter-finals this year are mid-March 2010; with the semis and finals being played in April.

I agree that if a Feburary game happens, then Skydome would be the best solution, similiar to what Impact did when they played in Olympic Stadium.

 

[wyliepoon]

Although i like what they are doing with the new addition of grass and also eventually expanding to 30/35K, I still say, sell it to the Argos, and build a brand spanking new 38.000 seat Euro-Style soccer stadium on the Portlands.
3-4 big stadiums is not unheard of in cities of this size around the world.

Unfortunately the Canadian sporting scene can't support 3-4 large stadia in one city like in other countries. The only sport that seems to work well that way in Canada is hockey. Right now it looks like the most popular model for stadia in Canadian cities is to have one or two small ones (capacity under 20k) and one massive one for the big teams or events...

Montreal: Olympic Stadium (big), Molson (small), Saputo (small)
Toronto: SkyDome (big), BMO (small), Varsity (small)
Vancouver: BC Place (big), Swangaard (very small), future Whitecaps Waterfront (small)

... and even this model doesn't work all the time. Olympic Stadium is reserved for big events only. SkyDome and BC Place host regular CFL games but rarely sell out. Hate to say this, but Toronto is far from a world-class sporting city like New York, London or Manchester.

*****

I like Marko's idea of gradually growing a stadium. Growing a stadium "organically" would not only allow the stadium to meet the needs of fan base over time (instead of overbuilding and creating a sea of empty seats like most days at SkyDome), every small expansion would give the stadium a bit of unique character.

Every new section could be built to suit a particular group of fan's needs, with a special nickname, and with special amenities.

 

[Automation Gallery]

Where was everyone when tha Argos and Blue Jays were filling stadiums of 50K plus. You bring in the product you fill the stands.

 

[waterloowarrior]

Unfortunately the Canadian sporting scene can't support 3-4 large stadia in one city like in other countries. The only sport that seems to work well that way in Canada is hockey. Right now it looks like the most popular model for stadia in Canadian cities is to have one or two small ones (capacity under 20k) and one massive one for the big teams or events...

Montreal: Olympic Stadium (big), Molson (small), Saputo (small)
Toronto: SkyDome (big), BMO (small), Varsity (small)
Vancouver: BC Place (big), Swangaard (very small), future Whitecaps Waterfront (small)

... and even this model doesn't work all the time. Olympic Stadium is reserved for big events only. SkyDome and BC Place host regular CFL games but rarely sell out. Hate to say this, but Toronto is far from a world-class sporting city like New York, London or Manchester.

and in Europe/UK even the lower league teams do pretty well... there are about 50 football teams in England with stadiums of 20,000 or more and 30 of them are not in the premier league. Meanwhile the Marlie's draw 4000-5000 per game.

 

[Marko]

Vancouver: BC Place (big), Swangaard (very small), future Whitecaps Waterfront (small)

Last I heard the waterfront stadium for the Whitecaps was dead and that a new roof for BC Place was going to kill 2 birds with one stone: 1) Revamp the stadium to allow direct sunlight in full configuration and 2) contain a separate inner "tent" that gets lowered to cover the upper bowl for smaller events such as MLS games.

It's not half bad, but I think the inner roof needs to slop up at a steeper angle. Partly to better hide the upper levels and partly to open up the field a little. Many international soccer stadiums have covered seating, but it typically doesn't extend past the seating like this, and if it does, it's much higher up as part of a larger open roof system.