Toronto BMO Field Renovations | ?m | ?s | MLSE | Gensler

[bmiller]

I imagine our fluctuating dollar will be a major deterrent for investors. The 10% drop in our dollar in the last few months alone has a big impact on the
existing sports teams in the city.
One of many articles on the subject.
http://sports.nationalpost.com/2013...uld-have-huge-impact-on-nhl-teams-affect-cfl/

Toronto may end up with a team, but i wouldn't put much money on it, at least Canadian money.

 

[TrickyRicky]

What makes me smile a little bit about these kind of discussions is how strange a place Toronto is in the sports world. Sports teams here are seen as businesses and expected to make money. Stadium are considered assets that require full utilization. By the way I think these are good things.

Regarding the comment about small markets in the US. I think we need to consider that our small markets and small markets in the United States are on a different scale. Even our bigger small markets like Calgary or Ottawa are not even second tier but third tier markets in the States.

 

[Translude15]

What makes me smile a little bit about these kind of discussions is how strange a place Toronto is in the sports world. Sports teams here are seen as businesses and expected to make money. Stadium are considered assets that require full utilization. By the way I think these are good things.

Regarding the comment about small markets in the US. I think we need to consider that our small markets and small markets in the United States are on a different scale. Even our bigger small markets like Calgary or Ottawa are not even second tier but third tier markets in the States.

Well yeah because Calgary and Ottawa are barely over 1 million population wise whereas smaller American markets tend to have urban areas of 2-3 million.

 

[GenerationW]

What makes you think that you have to be Canadian to own a Toronto NFL team?

You don't. But it will never happen without local ownership. And there is only one team in play anyway, so it's the Bills or bust.

 

[Mulder]

Toronto is the only city where the Argos make any sense, because winning isn't the goal.

To make money, serious money, in football, you need an NFL franchise.

In the USA, yes, but in Canada, which TV network is going to 120m+ to air 16 games? Do you think American TV networks would be happy to air a Canadian team in the US? Do you think Amercian TV networks would be happy to pay money to a franchise in a location where they cannot make any revenue from the broadcast?

The CFL is a nowhere league that no one else in the world pays any attention to - and even at that the Argos are mediocre. Most people in Toronto that are interested in football watch the NFL. How many people in your area had a "Super Bowl" party on the weekend. How many NFL jerseys do you see compared to CFL jerseys? How many CFL players have you ever heard of? There is no question that for football to be successful in Toronto, it will now have to be the NFL.

The popularity of the NFL in Toronto is first of all well overstated. Most people who "follow" the NFL is because of office pools, fantasy teams & gambling. Take that away, (which is likely given the NFL's stance on gambling) more people would probably turn to the local team, as well you wouldn't beable to name players on an NFL roster either.

What's even more funnier, is that a local radio station had a quick contest on "Who won the superbowl last year?" (it was part of a larger group of questions) and it took the 4th caller to get it. Even I have a hard time around superbowl time remembering who won last season. Yet, I can name every grey cup winning team for the past 10 years.

Given the market in Toronto, a radio station could ask "How many goals did Phil Kessel score last season with his skates parallel?" And you would get the correct answer on the first call.
The Toronto market only cares about the Leafs.

The only reason MLSE would purchase the Argos is so they can shut it down when they bring in a real football team. The Bills are rumoured to be coming here once Wilson departs. (Also perfect because the Bills never win either)

You are delusional if you think this is going to happen

 

[junior43]

In the USA, yes, but in Canada, which TV network is going to 120m+ to air 16 games? Do you think American TV networks would be happy to air a Canadian team in the US? Do you think Amercian TV networks would be happy to pay money to a franchise in a location where they cannot make any revenue from the broadcast?





The popularity of the NFL in Toronto is first of all well overstated. Most people who "follow" the NFL is because of office pools, fantasy teams & gambling. Take that away, (which is likely given the NFL's stance on gambling) more people would probably turn to the local team, as well you wouldn't beable to name players on an NFL roster either.

What's even more funnier, is that a local radio station had a quick contest on "Who won the superbowl last year?" (it was part of a larger group of questions) and it took the 4th caller to get it. Even I have a hard time around superbowl time remembering who won last season. Yet, I can name every grey cup winning team for the past 10 years.

Given the market in Toronto, a radio station could ask "How many goals did Phil Kessel score last season with his skates parallel?" And you would get the correct answer on the first call.
The Toronto market only cares about the Leafs.




You are delusional if you think this is going to happen

It really does come down to which you prefer. You say you can name the last ten Grey Cup winners? I can't name last years, but can name the last 20 superbowl winners (and last 30 world series winners). I also can't name one player from any team in the CFL, but could tell you the starting QB for all 32 NFL teams.

FYI - I also have 7 NFL jerseys, 1 from each city I've been to. The NFL draws huge tourism for the City as well as revenue for the owner.

To be honest, I think you are also far underestimating the popularity of the NFL here, I was at the last Bills game in TO, and probably around a quarter to a third of the people had NFL jerseys or shirts on, but they were from a lot of different teams. Having a Toronto team would bring a lot of those people onside with the new team. We don't get big attendance because there's not a lot of Bills fans in TO (I hate them now, but would love them if they were based in TO) and we've hosted truly crap teams. Making the Bills Toronto's team would give them a lot more of a fanbase.

Are you serious about the NFL getting rid of gambling and fantasy? The NFL hosts their own fantasy league on their site - and there is NOTHING they can do about gambling. Is there even such a thing as fantasy teams (or office pools) for the CFL? I've never heard of any.

As for broadcasting someone up here would definitely jump on it. The team would be marketed as Canada's team, similar to the Jays and a lesser extent the Leafs. As for the US, they don't even like broadcasting a Carolina- Jacksonville game either, we'll be the same. It just means we won't be the game they broadcast nationally. Who cares?

All this said, I'd definitely go to a home game of the Stampeders, Eskimos or Roughriders, the CFL is very strong on the Prairies. I've turned down free Argo tickets several times, I couldn't care less about seeing them in TO. As you stated about unless it's the Leafs this town is fickle on their sports teams, definitely true, and that's one of the risks to bringing an NFL team here.

As for us getting a team, only LA is a bigger market than us without a team, once they have a team, we're a prime spot for expansion or moving the Bills up. Several friends of mine are season's ticket holders to the Bills as well. Why? For when they move here, they actually don't like the Bills and sell most of their tickets, but they want to be in the queue if and when the Bills get moved here. Also, the NFL doesn't like relocating teams across the country you lose an established fanbase. Moving the Bills here is a perfect compromise for the NFL, Toronto, Buffalo and the Bills.

 

[droyces]

How popular the NFL is in Toronto remains an unknown (I don't count the Bills Series because I don't think people in Toronto like to think of themselves as deserving of a loaner team...especially one from Buffalo (who just so happen stink EVERY year)...and true local "Bills" fans resent the series as well and as such do not support it).

People often quote how popular the CFL is and yet when I attended a game this year, on a beautiful night with the roof open, I doubt there was 10,000 people there. Granted a better facility would draw a larger audience but anyone thinking the Argos are going to draw like they used to (45,000 to 50,000 at the CNE) are dreaming.

My belief is that is if someone, maybe a group fronted by John Bonjovi, wants to spend the money to bring a team here then fantastic! I'm in. Sign me up. I'd like the Argo's to continue but I don't like being told I can't have what I want (NFL) because it could harm what someone else likes (CFL). Let the market decide.

Everyone (Bob McCowan) always talks about the US TV contract all the while ignoring the fact that the NFL has been without their 2nd largest market for almost 20 years when the Rams moved to St. Louis. Did the TV networks get a big refund when that happened? With the changes to technology TV households won't matter as much. Who knows maybe the "Toronto NFL'ers" workout a deal with the league (discount) knowing they get the whole country of Canada to themselves.

What really hurt the Argos (I'm old enough to remember going to see the Argo's when they could fill CNE stadium) was the Toronto Blue Jays and to a lesser extend the Raptors. People want what they perceive to be as the "Best" in this city. That's why the Leafs get so much support when the Marlies (outside of the playoffs) remain largely ignored despite much cheaper ticket prices (last time I went it was at best 1/3 full).

I am not saying it will happen. I hope it does happen. If some guy wants to give it a go I say "Go for it!".

 

[gweed123]

You would be surprised, any new expansion of the NFL and you would have a line up of Big Shots wanting one for Toronto...
My prediction, Toronto in the NFL in the next 10 years.

By the way, the many major USA cities you mention above without an NFL team is one (Los Angeles). and there is rumor that they will be back in the NFL in the next 3 years

And any expansion into LA would likely have to come with another team as well, because leagues like to generally do expansions in multiples of 2. Having said that, 32 is a near perfect number of a league, because it can be broken down into groups of 16, 8, and 4. 34 is much more awkward. IMO, 36 would be the next logical number (6 divisions of 6 teams).

 

[Mulder]

It really does come down to which you prefer. You say you can name the last ten Grey Cup winners? I can't name last years, but can name the last 20 superbowl winners (and last 30 world series winners). I also can't name one player from any team in the CFL, but could tell you the starting QB for all 32 NFL teams.

I agree, but we are talking about a Toronto Sports station that did this trivia.

FYI - I also have 7 NFL jerseys, 1 from each city I've been to. The NFL draws huge tourism for the City as well as revenue for the owner.

Yup. All those Americans without passports will flock to Toronto. :S

To be honest, I think you are also far underestimating the popularity of the NFL here

I don't think I am recent polls in the GTA have regularity put the CFL on par or higher than the NFL in terms of popularity. GTA TV ratings show the same, usually slightly higher than the Jays. Second only to the Leafs.

, I was at the last Bills game in TO, and probably around a quarter to a third of the people had NFL jerseys or shirts on, but they were from a lot of different teams.

Don't forget about 10,000 of those blue jerseys that looked like seats. Rogers ggave away seats to customers & employees. I was offered a 4 pack for free, I would have gone, but I was busy.

Having a Toronto team would bring a lot of those people onside with the new team. We don't get big attendance because there's not a lot of Bills fans in TO (I hate them now, but would love them if they were based in TO) and we've hosted truly crap teams. Making the Bills Toronto's team would give them a lot more of a fanbase.

Apologists will always find a reason why it failed. Blaming everything from pricing, tailgating, experience, atmosphere, not TO's team. Let's face the facts here. This was a test to see if the NFL would work here, it failed miserability. Everyone at the time KNEW this was a test to see if Toronto would support an NFL team. It still crashed and burned.

Are you serious about the NFL getting rid of gambling and fantasy? The NFL hosts their own fantasy league on their site - and there is NOTHING they can do about gambling.

Yes there is. Have you ever wondered why you couldn't bet on Raptors games? The NBA almost revoked the franchise at the time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport_Select#Ontario_and_the_NBA

Given the NFL has a very similar stance on this (NFL would want profits from gambling on their product)
OLG would have to get rid of it too. My post wasn't about Fantasy.

Is there even such a thing as fantasy teams (or office pools) for the CFL? I've never heard of any.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=CFL+Fantasy

CFL also has an app.

As for broadcasting someone up here would definitely jump on it.

There is 2 sides to this.
1) Current NFL owners have to agree on franchise relocation/expansion.
NFL owners would lose revenue on the TV deal if a franchise came to Canada via expansion. Sure this could be offset by Expansion fee's
2) NFL owners would want this "loss" made up for. Which means a Canadian TV team with "Canada's Team" (as you put it) basically at the salary cap. It's hard to explain via text

Maybe, but it'll be because they don't want the other guy to get it. I believe CTRC restricts how much stations can charge for advertisements. Regardless, it would have to be a 120m+ per season deal. TV stations would be plain stupid to put up that money on what would be a money loser for them.

The team would be marketed as Canada's team, similar to the Jays and a lesser extent the Leafs. As for the US, they don't even like broadcasting a Carolina- Jacksonville game either, we'll be the same. It just means we won't be the game they broadcast nationally. Who cares?

Not even close. Many have already rejected this idea that has come out. It would not nor ever be supported country wide and would cause even more of the country to hate Toronto even more than they do now (I know, Impossible right?)

All this said, I'd definitely go to a home game of the Stampeders, Eskimos or Roughriders, the CFL is very strong on the Prairies. I've turned down free Argo tickets several times, I couldn't care less about seeing them in TO.

The stadium experience definitely has something to do with it. The Argo's haven't played in a stadium designed for football in mind since the 1970's The new stadium with better viewing and atmosphere will follow. It was getting better every game when I went at the skydome.

As you stated about unless it's the Leafs this town is fickle on their sports teams, definitely true, and that's one of the risks to bringing an NFL team here.

NFL and NHL season overlap. Your sports radio station will still be talking about that Leafs game that happened 4 days ago, than the NFL game that happened yesterday.

As for us getting a team, only LA is a bigger market than us without a team, once they have a team, we're a prime spot for expansion or moving the Bills up. Several friends of mine are season's ticket holders to the Bills as well. Why? For when they move here, they actually don't like the Bills and sell most of their tickets, but they want to be in the queue if and when the Bills get moved here. Also, the NFL doesn't like relocating teams across the country you lose an established fanbase. Moving the Bills here is a perfect compromise for the NFL, Toronto, Buffalo and the Bills.

The NFL isn't coming to Toronto. There is no signs it is. There is no stadium for it. The Commissioner has flat out said no team is going to Toronto. There is no conspiracy that MLSE has to look after the Argos in order to get NFL.

Argo's are a diamond in the rough in terms of sports teams ownership opportunities, They made money last season, and with the new TV deal are scheduled to make alot more.

 

[junior43]

I agree, but we are talking about a Toronto Sports station that did this trivia. .

True, but the knowledge and talk of the NFL team would increase with one here.

Yup. All those Americans without passports will flock to Toronto. :S .

Then how do all the Red Sox and Yankee fans and the rest keep showing up in TO? Sure a lot of Americans may not be knowledgeable, but it's pretty obvious they've figured it out for Baseball, it's not a stretch they will figure it out for Football. Also, Toronto is a financial hub, what better way to get clients up here than when the Patriots, Giants or Jets are playing us? NHL doesn't lure most of them, but the NFL does.

Don't forget about 10,000 of those blue jerseys that looked like seats. Rogers gave away seats to customers & employees. I was offered a 4 pack for free, I would have gone, but I was busy.

Apologists will always find a reason why it failed. Blaming everything from pricing, tailgating, experience, atmosphere, not TO's team. Let's face the facts here. This was a test to see if the NFL would work here, it failed miserability. Everyone at the time KNEW this was a test to see if Toronto would support an NFL team. It still crashed and burned.

In Toronto we're split on the Bills. Half the city likes the Bills, half the city hates the Bills. So their only drawing on half the potential, IMO. You can call it apologist, and all my friends can't fill a stadium (and none of them like the Bills), but I don't know anyone who pays attention to the CFL or Argos - except for Aunts and Uncles who recall the glory days of it.

Yes there is. Have you ever wondered why you couldn't bet on Raptors games? The NBA almost revoked the franchise at the time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport_Select#Ontario_and_the_NBA

Given the NFL has a very similar stance on this (NFL would want profits from gambling on their product)
OLG would have to get rid of it too. My post wasn't about Fantasy.

Who cares about OLG? I don't know anyone who bets NFL games on it, they use Internet sites and Vegas, the NFL can't stop this.

There is 2 sides to this.
1) Current NFL owners have to agree on franchise relocation/expansion.
NFL owners would lose revenue on the TV deal if a franchise came to Canada via expansion. Sure this could be offset by Expansion fee's
2) NFL owners would want this "loss" made up for. Which means a Canadian TV team with "Canada's Team" (as you put it) basically at the salary cap. It's hard to explain via text

Maybe, but it'll be because they don't want the other guy to get it. I believe CTRC restricts how much stations can charge for advertisements. Regardless, it would have to be a 120m+ per season deal. TV stations would be plain stupid to put up that money on what would be a money loser for them.

If it's Rogers that owns the broadcast rights and the team (same would go with Bell) Profits on the team covers the expense of broadcast. Not the best, but it only needs to work at the beginning assuming there's an uptake in the fanbase by the time the contract is renewed and costs are justified. And yes, they'll have to max out the salary cap and get quality players (and exchange rate doesn't help either.)

Not even close. Many have already rejected this idea that has come out. It would not nor ever be supported country wide and would cause even more of the country to hate Toronto even more than they do now (I know, Impossible right?)

You're probably right. Vancouver= Seattle Fans, Prairies already visit Green Bay and Minneapolis. (I've met Canadians in all those cities at games and bars.) But that still Leaves Atlantic Canada and Quebec although they already gravititate to New England. But all of them may still come to Toronto to see their 'home' teams play Toronto. In every US city I've been to, the hotels are packed with visitors for either the home team or the visiting team. I think you're under estimating how much of a tourist draw a NFL team would be to Toronto - doesn't help the owners, but certainly would help Toronto.

Oh, and yes, the whole country loves to hate Toronto, but that also drives traffic. It's eyes on the boob tube either way. Whether they root for us or against us, they want to see us lose/win.

So even if it's down to just the GTHA or southern and eastern Ontario, you're still drawing on 8 million + people.

The stadium experience definitely has something to do with it. The Argo's haven't played in a stadium designed for football in mind since the 1970's The new stadium with better viewing and atmosphere will follow. It was getting better every game when I went at the skydome.

NFL and NHL season overlap. Your sports radio station will still be talking about that Leafs game that happened 4 days ago, than the NFL game that happened yesterday.

Yes, the NFL talk would mainly be on the Monday, and yes the Leafs would drown them out the rest of the week, but they also play far more often. And, this is Toronto, they've sucked for 40+ years and the fans are still rabid. On another topic, I'm honestly afraid of what would happen if we won the Stanley Cup.

The NFL isn't coming to Toronto. There is no signs it is. There is no stadium for it. The Commissioner has flat out said no team is going to Toronto. There is no conspiracy that MLSE has to look after the Argos in order to get NFL.

Again, have to disagree. The link below refers to the rumour from November regarding Jon Bon Jovi, but there's also lots of comments from Lieweke and Tannenbaum stating they talk to bon Jovi about moving an NFL team. Yes the rumour was dismissed, but I feel that was out of respect for Ralph Wilson and Bills fans. No one ever denied the comments from Lieweke.

No Stadium? They only need a temporary Stadium to start and the Skydome could suffice, or the York U Pan Am stadium.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/footb...onto_inside_track_on_buffalo_bills_kelly.html

Argo's are a diamond in the rough in terms of sports teams ownership opportunities, They made money last season, and with the new TV deal are scheduled to make alot more.

And the Argos were profitable in the 90's when John Candy was an owner too. This goes back to Toronto fans being fickle. If an NFL team was here and successful, the Argos profits would be a rounding error compared to an NFL team's profits here.

Is it a long shot? Of course it is, but the only city with a better chance of getting a franchise is LA - and the talk lately is the Raiders are going there. They only signed a 1 year extension to their lease last year, and plans for a new stadium have stalled.

http://espn.go.com/blog/oakland-rai...ress-on-raiders-stadium?ex_cid=espnapi_public

In a sick way we have to wait for Ralph Wilson to see the next move............

 

[junior43]

And any expansion into LA would likely have to come with another team as well, because leagues like to generally do expansions in multiples of 2. Having said that, 32 is a near perfect number of a league, because it can be broken down into groups of 16, 8, and 4. 34 is much more awkward. IMO, 36 would be the next logical number (6 divisions of 6 teams).

They don't need more teams, Bills> Toronto, Raiders>LA, and Jags>London if Goodell is crazy enough for the last one......

 

[GenerationW]

And any expansion into LA would likely have to come with another team as well, because leagues like to generally do expansions in multiples of 2. Having said that, 32 is a near perfect number of a league, because it can be broken down into groups of 16, 8, and 4. 34 is much more awkward. IMO, 36 would be the next logical number (6 divisions of 6 teams).

They went from 6 divisions to 8 in their last major restructuring. Doubt they'd ever go back to 6.

It's a moot point anyway. Beyond the occasional rumour, the NFL has shown zero interest in expanding beyond 32. Any movement into new markets will almost certainly come from moving existing teams.

If it's Rogers that owns the broadcast rights and the team (same would go with Bell) Profits on the team covers the expense of broadcast. Not the best, but it only needs to work at the beginning assuming there's an uptake in the fanbase by the time the contract is renewed and costs are justified. And yes, they'll have to max out the salary cap and get quality players (and exchange rate doesn't help either.)

Rogers can't own the team since the NFL prohibits corporate ownership. And Canadian broadcast rights fees are chicken feed to the NFL. The NFL cares about one thing above anything else, and that's growing U.S. TV rights fees and therefore ad revenues. As a foreign market, Canadian TV ratings are not factored into that equation. As the NFL has learned from NBA and MLB ventures into Canada, we mean nothing to an American sport league's bottom line.



I'm not clear how expanding BMO to house the Argos helps anyone get closer to a Toronto NFL team. The only advantage I see in including the Argos is that it makes it easier for MLSE to get public funding for the stadium expansion.

 

[GenerationW]

They don't need more teams, Bills> Toronto, Raiders>LA, and Jags>London if Goodell is crazy enough for the last one......

London is the least crazy of the three. They've survived just fine without L.A. for 20 years, and Toronto is basically a mature NFL market without a team. Only London would give them a chance to expand NFL football beyond a North American footprint. And unlike Toronto, London actually sells out its games, and that's 80,000 in London, not 50,000 in Toronto.

 

[junior43]

They went from 6 divisions to 8 in their last major restructuring. Doubt they'd ever go back to 6.

It's a moot point anyway. Beyond the occasional rumour, the NFL has shown zero interest in expanding beyond 32. Any movement into new markets will almost certainly come from moving existing teams.

Rogers can't own the team since the NFL prohibits corporate ownership. And Canadian broadcast rights fees are chicken feed to the NFL. The NFL cares about one thing above anything else, and that's growing U.S. TV rights fees and therefore ad revenues. As a foreign market, Canadian TV ratings are not factored into that equation. As the NFL has learned from NBA and MLB ventures into Canada, we mean nothing to an American sport league's bottom line.



I'm not clear how expanding BMO to house the Argos helps anyone get closer to a Toronto NFL team. The only advantage I see in including the Argos is that it makes it easier for MLSE to get public funding for the stadium expansion.

Jon Bon Jovi is the 30% owner (as required by the NFL) and Rogers/Bell and others (lieweke and tannenbaum, MLSE owns the rest)

How is London more appealing? The NFL has already failed there once with NFL Europe? Just as Canada is hockey crazy, all of Europe is soccer crazy. Same knock can be applied to both. Also, London is popular now, but that's because they have zero live access to it, it's still a novelty.

 

[junior43]

London is the least crazy of the three. They've survived just fine without L.A. for 20 years, and Toronto is basically a mature NFL market without a team. Only London would give them a chance to expand NFL football beyond a North American footprint. And unlike Toronto, London actually sells out its games, and that's 80,000 in London, not 50,000 in Toronto.

So basically, LA isn't needed for the same reason as Toronto. It's an established market without a team. Granted, TV rights there are would be far larger than here, but LA's already lost at least 2 teams, the Rams and the Raiders. So there's no guarantee of success moving a team there. As I mentioned in my previous post, London and NFL Europe collapsed, so they've already failed as well - and they still treat it as a novelty right now since they have no other live access to it. That leaves Toronto, where they've never had any version of the NFL except for the Bills visiting.

All three cities have knocks against them. Expanding to Europe will fail IMO. Players can be hesitant to play in Canada for various reasons (cold, taxes, etc.) London which is an ocean away? No one will want to play for that team. Toronto to a player would be more appealing. If the NFL goes to London, we'd get that team eventually, assuming the Bills don't show up here first.

LA is still the number one choice, but it has it's faults (failed twice). London's failed once and no one would want to play there. Toronto? Wild card. Sure a Toronto NFL may not sell in the US, but how would a team in London sell any better??????? They may get initial TV contracts which are better, but like I said, they're soccer mad and the novelty would wear off. At least we have a history with the sport with the Argos. None of these three cities is a guaranteed winner for the NFL, but I don't see why our chances are worse than the other two.

Oh - and which of these three cities is expected to grow by 40-50 percent in the next 20 years? As far as I know, that would be us. IMO our upside potential is far better.