Toronto 4800 Yonge Street | 168.24m | 49s | Menkes | Arquitectonica

[Automation Gallery]

A bit shorter than i expected, but could still become North York's tallest

4800 YONGE ST
Ward 23 - North York District

Construct a 49 storey mixed use building 37,411.42 square metres of residential floor area with 536 dwelling units and 5 storeys of commercial at floors 1 through 5; and 6 storeys of below grade parking.
Proposed Use --- # of Storeys --- # of Units ---
Applications:
Type Number Date Submitted Status
OPA 15 250774 NNY 23 OZ Nov 12, 2015 Under Review

 

[Jacob Laponointe]

More office space would be a far better fit for this lot. So much for attracting more employment to NYC

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

Nope,.... Automation Gallery, you're basically wrong again!

Currently, North York tallest is HullmarkCentre North Tower at 168m which comprise of 12 storey office tower with 33 storey condo tower on top. Due to higher ceiling height, 7 storey of office floor is generally equivalent in height to 10 storey of condo floors. Thus, the 12 storey office tower of HullmarkCentre North Tower is equivalent to 17 storey of condo floors; add 33 storey condo tower on top of this an you'll have 50 storey of condo all within 168 metres,.... which is what Menkes is proposing for the southwest corner of Yonge and Sheppard.

Menkes is proposing that 4800 Yonge (southwest corner of Yonge & Sheppard) matches the HullmarkCentre north tower (directly across Yonge Street) at 168m but with no office component on land zoned for office only,... just 50 floors of residential condo with limited retail space on ground floors,.... similar to Menkes GibsonSquare project (twin 42 storey condo towers on land formerly zoned for office only). They'll also need 5 floors of underground parking (HullmarkCentre has 4 floors of underground parking, EmeraldPark has 6 floors of underground parking,... deepest is Shangri-la with 8 floors of underground parking)

Needless to say, city rejecting proposal and this one going to OMB.

As I posted late last month in post#57,... 50 storey with 5 storey of underground parking (50 + 5 = 55),... officially, they went with 49 storey with "6 storeys of below grade parking" (49 + 6 = 55),.... technically depends on where they define at grade since the lot in question is on a slope,... enough of a slope that ground level for the west end and east end of this lot will be on a different floor!

Note: see attached photo of Nestle Building (western half of this same block); see large streetlevel main door of Nestle Building at 25 Sheppard (southeast corner of Sheppard&Beecroft) on main floor,... follow the windows/lines eastward towards it's side door near subway entrance halfway to Yonge Street - Notice that most frequently used entrance to Nestle Building is also on streetlevel but on lower concourse level of Nestle Buildings (not main level as with main door!).

Across Yonge Street, HullmarkCenter is also on a slope where the eastern part is 1 floor below the main level of Yonge Frontage and thus provide "at grade" access to the P1 parking level. This little tid-bit was significant in that part of the HullmarkCentre section 37 community benefit was a public "bike station" for with 70 bike parking spaces with restroom and 3 shower/change room that must be built "at grade",.... HullmarkCentre actually put in about 130 bike parking spaces for their public bike station but hide it all in underground P1 level,... which is technically considered "at grade" since it has at grade access from eastern side of building.

Anyways, if you're familiar with this 4800 Yonge site and the Nestle Building, you'd realize the parking entrance for Nestle building is in middle of Bogert Ave,... which is likely where the parking entrance for this proposal will be as well (can't be on Yonge due to traffic issues, ditto for Sheppard, thus, that only leaves Bogert,... and it'll be in middle of Bogert as was done for Nestle Building and EmeraldPark,.... thus, parking entrance for this development will be at southwest corner of lot,.. on higher elevation,... one floor higher elevation than the Yonge frontage,.... thus, if that's where they technically count "at grade" then it'll be the 49 storey with 6 storeys of below grade parking,..... but if they count from Yonge Street, then it's 50 storey with 5 storeys of below grade parking,....

Oops,.... but cynical me have recently been saying 50 storey condo with minimal retail on grade level like Menkes GibsonSquare,.... but if you go back to my June 29 post#49,..... "It will be *mixed use* with retail, office and residential condo,... Menkes now need to figure out proposed height and mix,...."

For this site, 4800 Yonge -southwest corner of Yonge & Sheppard,.... Menkes is moving fast,... compared to previous owner OMERS/OxfordProperties who held the property as parking lot since 1990s when Nestle Twin Tower phase 2 was halted because office market tanked,.... Anyways, Menkes already been in contact with City Planning with this proposal,.... Menkes *should* finalize their initial proposal in terms of height, total storeys, usage by end of July. It will be *mixed use* with retail, office and residential condo,... Menkes now need to figure out proposed height and mix,.... This land is zoned for all office only - no residential,... as was Gibson Square,... with what Menkes has been proposing thus far,.... this will likely go OMB as per Gibson Square.

What's interesting is Menkes went with 5 storeys of "commercial" which is basically like HullmarkCentre podium - which was streetlevel retail, second floor condo amenity floor and then condo office in third, forth and fifth floor,... thus, here I would expect the 5 storey commercial to be broken down as: 5th floor to be condo amenity floor; condo offices on fourth, third and second(?); retails on main and second(?) - but keep in mind significant space on main floor will be dedicated to loading dock & parking ramps. Anyways, at the end of the day, this 5 storeys of commercial will only be at most 2-3 token storey of office-condo,.... on land that is currently zoned for Nestle Twin tower!,.... thus, city wants at least 21 storey of office space!

Of the 5 commercial storeys,.... lobby floor between condo & office does not differ significantly. So looking at 4 commercial storey,.... say 4 office storeys where ceiling height means 7 office storey is equivalent to 10 condo storey,... thus the 4 office storey is generally same as a bit over 5 condo floors,.... thus, at 49 storey with 5 storey commercial,... they're really equivalent to 50 storey condo,... and thus, they're matching HullmarkCentre North Tower height.

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

Only $12.7 million? Considering the price of houses in the area this seems rather cheap.

This lot is about 200ft x 190ft,.... typical tear-down bungalow on 50ft frontage x 130ft depth are sold for about $1.5million (just for land value) east of Doris near Empress,.... closer to here, we're still talking about $1.25million for 50ft frontage x 130 ft depth,... lots between Sheppard & Bogert tends to only be about 90ft depth,....

The city should have brought this site and converted it into a park! Not totally insane considering, a couple years ago just east of Willowdale Ave city opened new Maplehurst Park by acquiring 9 bungalow lots (basically $1million per,... guy in middle won't sell, so city built park around his bungalow! Adding cost to demolish houses and construct new park,... that's basically a $10million park! In addition, along the Yonge corridor in North York Centre, the park space per capita is amongst the lowest in the city due to all the high density development in North York Centre.

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

Yes, it would have been the zoning that kept that price so low. There is precedent across the street however, and they will argue based on that for sure.

Across the street is,... HullmarkCentre (12 storey office with 33 storey condo North Tower, 35 storey condo South tower and 5 storey podium - retail, condo amenity + 3 floors of condo-office) replaced Willowdale Plaza (retail shopping) and discussion with city started in mid-1980s (I personally remember all those development signs on site from mid-1990s). HullmarkCentre went in and out of OMB,... but final agreement with between city and developer without OMB ruling,...

This 4800 Yonge site is different in that there's an approved development application for Nestle twin 21 storey office tower from early 1990s on this site,.... thus, with this proposal,... expect OMB fight. City and councillor against this development proposal.

Menkes is trying to pull off another GibsonSquare where they got OMB ruling to build 42 storey twin condo tower with minimal streetlevel retail on land zoned for office use only.

 

[UrbanAffair]

Doesn't matter. It's what is there now that sets precedent. Yes, it will be an OMB battle, but what they are proposing is based on what happened across the street, not what happened at Gibson Square. It might get shortened a bit, but that is likely it. I deal with this stuff on the regular at work. Precedents are so key to how proposals evolve and what is decided. You're right though about Employment Lands being a tougher sell to rezone, but I think that's why they have the 5 or so floors of office. I would think that might need to increase a bit to get approved.

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

Doesn't matter. It's what is there now that sets precedent. Yes, it will be an OMB battle, but what they are proposing is based on what happened across the street, not what happened at Gibson Square. It might get shortened a bit, but that is likely it. I deal with this stuff on the regular at work. Precedents are so key to how proposals evolve and what is decided. You're right though about Employment Lands being a tougher sell to rezone, but I think that's why they have the 5 or so floors of office. I would think that might need to increase a bit to get approved.

Yes, HullmarkCentre North Tower at the southeast corner of Yonge&Sheppard does set a precedent, heightwise; since Menkes 4800 Yonge proposal is directly across the street at the southwest corner, it should be able to match that 168m height,.... and since it has the corner lot, be taller than EmeraldPark East Tower (directly to the south) at about 145m and Nestle Building (directly to west) at about 100m. The issue isn't whether Menkes 4800 Yonge should be able to match the height of HullmarkCentre North Tower (it should) but it's what's inside,... how many storeys of office VS condo VS retail,...

HullmarkCenter North Tower has 12 storey office base with 33 storey condo on top (total 45 storey). Menkes is proposing 5 storey commercial (mostly office) with 44 storey condo on top (total 49 storey,.... but remember office ceiling height is higher than condo - basically 7 office storey equivalent height to 10 condo storey,... thus, both towers would be about the same height. If Menkes proposal were to use HullmarkCentre North Tower as a true precedent,... then the Menkes proposal should match HullmarkCentre North Tower's 12 storey of offices!,... either way, Menkes 4800 Yonge land is already zoned for 21 storey office matching Nestle Building directly to west and that's the bar that the city is using (21 storey office with 91,262 sq ft (8,478.5 sq metre) of office space). Hypothetically, if Menkes proposal had 21 storey office (like Nestle Building and what's been approved for this site) at base with 19 storey condo on top, it would also match HullmarkCentre North Tower 168m height. Interestingly,.... the middle-ground between the 21 storey office approved for this site and the 5 storey commercial component they're proposing is 13 storey,.... but when you look at their 5 storey commercial as the 3 storey office that it really is (as I mentioned earlier,... lobby with retail floor and 1 condo amenity floor), the middle-ground is really 12 storey office,... which is what's at HullmarkCentre North Tower. Either way, city planning staff and local councillor aren't willing to negotiate,... they'll fight this development application,... to the OMB.

The Menkes GibsonSquare example is very relevant since it shows Menkes game plan,.... where they acquire (cheap) land originally zoned for offices use only (northwest corner of Yonge&ParkHomes/Empress which was to be ESSO head office building but they decided on Calgary instead and for years the land hosted a rose garden park,.... technically on private property),... propose condo development with minimal streetlevel retail space (no office at GibsonSquare),.... and then fight it out against city at OMB. Not only did Menkes win GibsonSquare at OMB,... they also broke former 100m height limit for North York Centre and got it declared null and void,...

 

[Automation Gallery]

So its 160 meters...........http://app.toronto.ca/DevelopmentAp...ion=init&folderRsn=3857893&isCofASearch=false

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

So its 160 meters...........http://app.toronto.ca/DevelopmentAp...ion=init&folderRsn=3857893&isCofASearch=false

Directly east across Yonge Street from this site,... HullmarkCentre's north tower is 168m,.... but keep in mind HullmarkCentre grade (ground) level is at a lower elevation since since the land topography slopes downward as you head eastward along Sheppard Ave from Beecroft Rd to Doris Ave,.... from eyeballing it, the difference in elevation along Sheppard at Beecroft (Nestle main entrance) and south-west corner of Yonge & Sheppard (where I think this proposal would have an open plaza to match the one at HullmarkCentre) is about 2 office storeys,.... especially since Nestle side door which is basically at midpoint marks one office storey down (as one of my previous posts indicates),.... 2 office storeys is about 8m,...the distance between these two points is similar to distance from 4800 Yonge across Yonge Street to HullmarkCentre north tower.

Thus, even though 4800 Yonge proposal is 160m, I'm sure they're matching HullmarkCentre's north tower height in terms of elevation for top of both towers,.... so approaching this intersection along Yonge Street,.... from a distance, you'll see both tower appear to be exact same height,.... even though 4800 Yonge will be on higher ground,...

 

[Automation Gallery]

so approaching this intersection along Yonge Street,.... from a distance, you'll see both tower appear to be exact same height,....

Gee shame, how boring
just kidding

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

4800 Yonge Street at southwest corner of Yonge & Sheppard (currently parking lot) was supposed to be 21 storey office,.... mid 1990's Nestle Building's Phase 2 OMERS building,.... then 2011 Oxford Properties release gorgeous white building renderings by Kohn Pedersen Fox but never sent development application to city planning,...
http://urbantoronto.ca/news/2011/10/new-office-building-coming-4800-yonge-north-york-city-centre

Menkes brought property for $12.7 million,... here's the rendering,...

WARNING - you can't unsee something that you've seen!!!!

Note: rendering view is looking southwest - NestleBuilding and westward Sheppard Ave West to the right,... southward EmeraldPark and Yonge Street to the left,....

I was wrong,... my speculation of a public plaza at the northeast corner of the site to match the public plaza of HullmarkCentre was dead wrong,.... they have a 5 storey podium commercial block,... similar in design to EmeraldPark,... glass on first and second floor with overhanging 3 storey of green panel/glass just like EmeraldPark,... At EmpressWalk, Menkes used large podium mall to hide the 2 residential towers from people walking on Yonge Street (first condo tower on Yonge Street),... here Menkes seem to think they can build a large block podium to hide the oval footprint residential condo tower,.... it'll be oval to match the curve of the TTC WYE Sheppard eastbound to Yonge southbound subway turning tunnel underneath the lot,.... similar in design to City Place Matrix condos at 361 & 373 Front Street West (between BlueJaysWay and Spadina),.... but northwest edge seems to have a sail effect (compare it to straight edges of NestleBuilding)
http://condos.ca/toronto/matrix-at-cityplace-361-373-front-st-w

Colour seems weird,.... Nestle Building is blue,... EmeraldPark is dollarama green,.... so 4800 Yonge seems to be a combination of greenish-blue or bluish-green,....

 

[interchange42]

Menkes has gone with Arquitectonica's New York office as design architects here, with Turner Fleischer the Architects of Record.

More information (and a dataBase file update) in the next few days!

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[interchange42]

Here's a better look:

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[interchange42]

Some massing studies of the podium and surroundings, from six angles:

Looking northeast.

Looking northwest.

Looking southeast.

Looking south.

Looking southwest.

Looking west.

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[interchange42]

Axonometric views of the tower in context:

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