Toronto 2024 Olympic Bid (Dead)

[animatronic]

Oh, and animatronic, thanks for the Olympic porn pic. You might actually have something there. I wonder if a flag that size could be woven and attached like that. Hilarious and ridonculous.

They could paint something on the radome (remember the stain from the Pepsi logo?), but a flag that large would likely damage the antenna.

 

[Tewder]

I think we should properly fund Lake Ontario Park w/ bridges, & a bridge to the islands (draw/swing bridge if necessary.)

[bla, bla, bla]

I would grudgingly respect Olympics boosters if they would actually say, 'Screw it! Yes, we'll throw away billions, but it will be TONS of fun!' But you don't. You tell me fantasy stories about infrastructure and affordable housing. Feh. To Hades with you and the horse you rode in on.

... ah heck why the horse? I'll take the future Scarborough subway line, which is exactly what your brand of incremental, small-minded and politicized planning/funding gets us: rapid transit to a field! No thanks, I'll plan bigger... and I'll gladly take the injection funding from upper levels of government to actually achieve real progress in this city, while you wring your hands with guilt that Montreal might be getting a little less and fantasize about a swing bridge.

 

[Euphoria]

I understand that the subway followed the Nordheimer Ravine and therefore curved southeast, but I don't see why there isn't room underground to the west for a subway line and underground expressway. London's underground is proof that if you dig deep enough, there are no underground obstacles. If what we're seeking is a parallel north-south subway line west of the Yonge-University-Spadina Line, it will need to be tunneled. My suggestion is simply to piggyback it on tunneling for an underground expressway. I think we'd all agree that building a Spadina Expressway down the middle of a ravine would be disastrous, let alone down the middle of Spadina at grade, but no one is calling for that kind of infrastructure. What we need is a DRL to the west, and since the Allen is nothing more than a stub, why not tunnel it? I realize this should probably be on another thread, but the project could dovetail with Olympic plans and/or plans for a revamped Gardner. Tunnel under existing roads and parks, such as Winnett, followed by Arlington, and Hillcrest Park, then curve into Christie Pits. Tunneling under streets and parks is always easier than tunneling under buildings. Basically follow the alignment of buried Taddle Creek. That means you get stations at St. Clair and Arlington, Christie Station (overlap with the existing Bloor-Danforth station), Grace and College (or thereabouts), Dundas and Grace, Gore Vale and Queen (Trinity Bellwoods). There are streetcar stops at each of these points where the DRL would intersect with east-west streetcar lines. Finally, have the final subway stops on this western half of the DRL overlap with the Spadina SmartTrac station and Union. The expressway entrances and exits could be very discrete. Simply have single-lane ramps funnel onto the right-hand lanes of existing streets. In terms of where the expressway would continue underground south of Queen, I would continue the expressway/subway eastbound underneath Richmond and have it divide into two branches at Bathurst, so that eastbound exits into downtown spilled out onto Adelaide just east of Bathurst and on Adelaide just east of Spadina. The westbound entry points onto the expressway would be just east of Bathurst on Richmond and just east of Spadina on Richmond. If the subway tunneling followed the southern branch of the expressway along Adelaide, it could easily divert south at Spadina to Front, where the tunneling would continue east along Front. Ideally, an expressway exit to the Gardner could travel south, maybe to a Front St. extension where it would travel westward. I realize this is big, but again, if the tolls are pricey and you amortize this bad boy over a long enough period, you've basically covered the subway tunneling capital costs for the western half of your Downtown Relief Line. And one last point, I think it's critical that we open up more of our best neighbourhoods to tourists and Torontonians. Areas like Corso Italia, Little Italy, Trinity Bellwoods (and by association West Queen West) should be very accessible. That's also why I'd suggest putting a SmartTrac station in the Distillery District. The track is already there! This isn't the 19th century. It's a bit silly to expect tourists to hike everywhere with backpacks or get on clunky streetcars to get to attractions. That's just not how it's done in great cities.

 

[animatronic]

I understand that the subway followed the Nordheimer Ravine and therefore curved southeast, but I don't see why there isn't room underground to the west for a subway line and underground expressway. London's underground is proof that if you dig deep enough, there are no underground obstacles. If what we're seeking is a parallel north-south subway line west of the Yonge-University-Spadina Line, it will need to be tunneled. My suggestion is simply to piggyback it on tunneling for an underground expressway. I think we'd all agree that building a Spadina Expressway down the middle of a ravine would be disastrous, let alone down the middle of Spadina at grade, but no one is calling for that kind of infrastructure. What we need is a DRL to the west, and since the Allen is nothing more than a stub, why not tunnel it? I realize this should probably be on another thread, but the project could dovetail with Olympic plans and/or plans for a revamped Gardner. Tunnel under existing roads and parks, such as Winnett, followed by Arlington, and Hillcrest Park, then curve into Christie Pits. Tunneling under streets and parks is always easier than tunneling under buildings. Basically follow the alignment of buried Taddle Creek. That means you get stations at St. Clair and Arlington, Christie Station (overlap with the existing Bloor-Danforth station), Grace and College (or thereabouts), Dundas and Grace, Gore Vale and Queen (Trinity Bellwoods). There are streetcar stops at each of these points where the DRL would intersect with east-west streetcar lines. Finally, have the final subway stops on this western half of the DRL overlap with the Spadina SmartTrac station and Union. The expressway entrances and exits could be very discrete. Simply have single-lane ramps funnel onto the right-hand lanes of existing streets. In terms of where the expressway would continue underground south of Queen, I would continue the expressway/subway eastbound underneath Richmond and have it divide into two branches at Bathurst, so that eastbound exits into downtown spilled out onto Adelaide just east of Bathurst and on Adelaide just east of Spadina. The westbound entry points onto the expressway would be just east of Bathurst on Richmond and just east of Spadina on Richmond. If the subway tunneling followed the southern branch of the expressway along Adelaide, it could easily divert south at Spadina to Front, where the tunneling would continue east along Front. Ideally, an expressway exit to the Gardner could travel south, maybe to a Front St. extension where it would travel westward. I realize this is big, but again, if the tolls are pricey and you amortize this bad boy over a long enough period, you've basically covered the subway tunneling capital costs for the western half of your Downtown Relief Line. And one last point, I think it's critical that we open up more of our best neighbourhoods to tourists and Torontonians. Areas like Corso Italia, Little Italy, Trinity Bellwoods (and by association West Queen West) should be very accessible. That's also why I'd suggest putting a SmartTrac station in the Distillery District. The track is already there! This isn't the 19th century. It's a bit silly to expect tourists to hike everywhere with backpacks or get on clunky streetcars to get to attractions. That's just not how it's done in great cities.

I'm not sure you realize how prohibitively expensive it is to tunnel a 4-lane expressway vs cut and cover. It's like an order of magnitude more expensive than boring subways. Unless you are going under water it just isn't done.

 

[nfitz]

Thr rowing venue was sited in the Shipping Channel to the south in the 2008 bid - Keating is not long nor wide enough for anything other than what it is. The 2008 plan also foresee the Gardiner staying in any case. A better outcome (now that the decision has been made to keep the Gardiner East) might be to rebuild that stretch into a more pleasing form and integrate it into the LDL plans.

Surely under the new bid rules, they'd simply do what they did for the Pan-Ams and use Henley - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Canadian_Henley_Rowing_Course in St. Catharines.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Surely under the new bid rules, they'd simply do what they did for the Pan-Ams and use Henley - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Canadian_Henley_Rowing_Course in St. Catharines.

That would be the appropriate thing to do.

AoD

 

[Euphoria]

Well, burying an expressway has been done in Boston, Montreal, Paris...and I'd agree that, as much as possible, we dig a trench in the roadway then cover it. This has been done for the Yonge-U and B-D lines and most subway lines everywhere.

 

[Euphoria]

You haven't heard the clincher, which is that eventually you extend that underground expressway under Adelaide and Richmond all the way to the ramps to the DVP. Now, as long as we have access from the west end of the Gardner to this new expressway,perhaps along a Front Street extension, you no longer need any elevated expressway over Lakeshore. The Gardner downtown is buried.

 

[animatronic]

Well, burying an expressway has been done in Boston, Montreal, Paris...and I'd agree that, as much as possible, we dig a trench in the roadway then cover it. This has been done for the Yonge-U and B-D lines and most subway lines everywhere.

Except according to the route you've mapped out a cut & cover would be pretty much impossible. Seattle has a good cautionary tale on the risks of trying bore a highway.

Note also that the original costs were $1B/mile which is about 3x what we pay for boring twin subway tunnels in Toronto. Final costs will be much higher.

 

[Euphoria]

One billion per mile sounds cheap considering that it would all be paid for by tolls. As I mentioned, start with extending the Allen downtown and including a DRL. Later on, take it straight across to the DVP and remove the elevated Gardner.

 

[animatronic]

One billion per mile sounds cheap considering that it would all be paid for by tolls. As I mentioned, start with extending the Allen downtown and including a DRL. Later on, take it straight across to the DVP and remove the elevated Gardner.

While we're at it, let's add a lane for unicorn racing.

 

[Euphoria]

Hey, it's a solution. Let's hear yours.

 

[animatronic]

Hey, it's a solution. Let's hear yours.

Oh hell, I'll bite.

• Let's use the Seattle tunnel's numbers of US$1B/mile to build and $7m/year to operate
• The route you are suggesting is about 8km long, so with exchange rates etc... let's estimate CAD$10B to build
• Seattle projects annual maintenance to cost US$7M/year for a 2-mile tunnel, so let's say it would be CAD$30m/year to maintain an 8km expressway here
• The amortization of $10B over 40 years at a typical Government of Ontario bond rate of 4% is $404m/year
• $404m to amortize + $30m to maintain = $434m
• Allen road currently carries approximately 80,000 cars/day
• If all of the current volume were to continue to the lake there would be a tunnel volume of 29 million vehicles/year
• Therefore the toll required to cover costs would be $15 per journey. Add in a few dollars for collection and administration fees and a commuter would be looking at $35-40/day in tolls
• The peak charge of the 407 is $0.34/km, or about $2.75 for the equivalent distance (plus admin fees)
• Driving in your tunnel would therefore be about 5.5x more expensive than riding on the 407
• That's not even counting the expected massive cost overruns in Seattle or the additional costs of laying a subway line (which would need it's own tunnel, so it's not like you are saving anything).
• Add all that in and you are looking at recovery toll of about $60-80 per round trip. For an 8km tunnel.
• The idea that piggy-backing a buried 4-lane highway and charging tolls to recover the cost of both the highway and the subway is farcical
• Therefore, you may have produced an interesting fantasy idea but you have not proposed a solution

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

Oh hell, I'll bite.

• Let's use the Seattle tunnel's numbers of US$1B/mile to build and $7m/year to operate
• The route you are suggesting is about 8km long, so with exchange rates etc... let's estimate CAD$10B to build
• Seattle projects annual maintenance to cost US$7M/year for a 2-mile tunnel, so let's say it would be CAD$30m/year to maintain an 8km expressway here
• The amortization of $10B over 40 years at a typical Government of Ontario bond rate of 4% is $404m/year
• $404m to amortize + $30m to maintain = $434m
• Allen road currently carries approximately 80,000 cars/day
• If all of the current volume were to continue to the lake there would be a tunnel volume of 29 million vehicles/year
• Therefore the toll required to cover costs would be $15 per journey. Add in a few dollars for collection and administration fees and a commuter would be looking at $35-40/day in tolls
• The peak charge of the 407 is $0.34/km, or about $2.75 for the equivalent distance (plus admin fees)
• Driving in your tunnel would therefore be about 5.5x more expensive than riding on the 407
• That's not even counting the expected massive cost overruns in Seattle or the additional costs of laying a subway line (which would need it's own tunnel, so it's not like you are saving anything).
• Add all that in and you are looking at recovery toll of about $60-80 per round trip. For an 8km tunnel.
• The idea that piggy-backing a buried 4-lane highway and charging tolls to recover the cost of both the highway and the subway is farcical
• Therefore, you may have produced an interesting fantasy idea but you have not proposed a solution

You lost Tewder and Euphoria at the first dollar sign. Infrastructure doesn't cost anything, you bundle it with an Olympics and 'higher orders' of government wave magic wands and - poof - infrastructure appears.

 

[Tewder]

You lost Tewder and Euphoria at the first dollar sign. Infrastructure doesn't cost anything, you bundle it with an Olympics and 'higher orders' of government wave magic wands and - poof - infrastructure appears.

Spoken like a true champagne socialist, fretting about government spending on needed infrastructure as he basks on a beach in Barbados. "Let the plebs back in Toronto suffer in their gridlock and pour me another Bahama Mama!"