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Toronto 2015 Pan American Games

I would suggest that any Olympic bid is, at least, 4 years away (2014 is when bidding would happen for 2020 no?) and possibly longer. I just think that NFL will happen here before Olympics......particularly if we want to use a successful Pan Am games as a playing card cause that would mean waiting until after 2015 for an Olympic bid so you would be looking at the 2024 Olympics as the earliest games to capitalize on the Pan Ams

You're right... but I wouldn't expect a serious bid for the Olympics until then anyway. There is an obvious reluctance to put the games on the same continent, let alone in the same country within 10 years of each other... that said, it's been done (Atlanta '96 and Salt Lake '02). Montreal '76 and Calgary '88 were also pretty close, but there are far more options as to where the Summer games can be held. In particular, if the World Cup is successful this year in South Africa, you have to think the IOC would jump at the chance to put the games on the African continent.

I still don't see the NFL in Toronto as imminent, for the reasons I've already described.
 
The importance that Toronto has to the CFL is in TV numbers. While game attendance is not great, it is by far the biggest TV market and contributes to the very high ratings on TSN. A legitimate fear would be the TV ratings plummeting if the league had no presence/relavence to the Toronto market.
It'd be interesting to see how it breaks down province by province. I know last season the numbers were a bit weird because they switched the rating system midway through the year. I don't deny that Toronto isn't an important market, but like I said, I'd just be interested in the breakdown because it'd be interesting to see.

You're right... but I wouldn't expect a serious bid for the Olympics until then anyway. There is an obvious reluctance to put the games on the same continent, let alone in the same country within 10 years of each other... that said, it's been done (Atlanta '96 and Salt Lake '02). Montreal '76 and Calgary '88 were also pretty close, but there are far more options as to where the Summer games can be held. In particular, if the World Cup is successful this year in South Africa, you have to think the IOC would jump at the chance to put the games on the African continent.

I still don't see the NFL in Toronto as imminent, for the reasons I've already described.
Since when is there a reluctance to hold games on the same continent? Nagano, Beijing and Sydney were all held within a 10 year period (one could argue that Sydney is on par with the games being held in Asia since some international sport organizations have Australia compete in Asian championships) and Turin and London are being held 6 years apart. It's also never been stated by anyone at the IOC that different games held in the same country 10 years apart is frowned upon. And the IOC isn't afraid to tell countries not to bid. They did it to the Americans for the 2020 games.

Also, considering the shambles the lead up to South Africa has been and the risk associated with the Rio 2016 games, the IOC isn't about to jump at the chance to go to another risky country. Beijing was considered a risk and they followed that up by having 4 of the safest bids possible bid for 2016. You don't think that wasn't done on purpose? They wanted to make sure that if Beijing was a disaster, they could follow it up with a worry-free games. Given the choice, if Toronto was up against Cairo or Cape Town or any other African city, you don't think Toronto would be the overwhelming favourite?
 
I think if we got the Olympics the NFL team would soon follow or vice versa (well perhaps the NFL team coming first might be a long shot since it would have to happen before we bid, and odds are we won't be seeing an NFL team here inthe next 3 years).

When do you think it will happen? if it were to happen, as early as mid-decade? as late as the next decade?

I think Godfrey was the main person to push for this NFL in Toronto thing, as he got all the big dogs with all the big dollars together to try and make this happen, IMO Toronto is too large a market for the NFL not to come here, EVER, as they are trying to go global because they are terribly behind the other sports in terms of being international. I think its a smart move too because going global nowadays, I think, is a must, and if they are trying to do that as they say and it seems to be true (NFL International series) what better first step than Toronto. When L.A. gets a team, then I think it will be just a matter of time before Toronto gets one, that's the question though it could be three years from when L.A gets a team or fifteen years, I am hoping the former lol
 
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^ I don't think there is any league-driven goal that says "LA first, then Toronto". The league (as most leagues do) deal with things as they come. So if a franchise relocation opportunity came up (Jacksonville, St. Louis and Buffalo are the ones I have heard most talk about) and the best offer/deal was Toronto and there was no offer/proposal (or a much weaker one) from LA I don't think the league would say "sorry Toronto you have to wait until LA is dealt with).

There have been a few franchise location changes/expansions in the NFL since 1994 and none of those were stopped/paused/delayed because there was this burning desire to be back in LA. The fact of the matter is that LA has a spotty record of attending NFL games when they had their teams.....the usual excuse is stadium location/amenities...none of those things has changed since 1994. The gain the NFL has made since LA moved out of LA is that all games can be broadcast into the LA market (2nd largest tv market) without any impact from the league's blackout rules. So they may not have a team but the league has benefited from unfettered tv access to the massive market.

I am not saying that Toronto should or will get a team before LA....I am just saying that I do not believe LA is anywhere near as big a factor in the "Toronto decision" as some would have you believe. It will come down to this:

1. Is there an (very) deep pocketed owner who wants a team enough to pay the market price for existing franchises or a large expansion fee
2. Is there a team available for relocation (or a will to expand)
3. Is there a suitable stadium that would support the cost of #1
4. Is there any decrease in our tv/marketing value in the USA by having a team in Canada (I doubt it) and if there is would that be offset by an increase in our tv/marketing value in Canada (likely).
 
LA also needs a new stadium. The Rose Bowl isn't suitable for the NFL and neither is the Coliseum. California is broke as well so there's no chance at public funding (no matter what people think of public funding). One guy has stepped up in LA and he says he wants to put a new stadium in the City of Industry, but there's nothing to suggest he's legit. Only two teams (one for sure, the other maybe) will be up for grabs in the near future, the bills and the jaguars. If no one in Buffalo can put up the money to keep the bills there, I'm sure the NFL would rather see the team go to Toronto so as to keep a market presence in the area. If Jacksonville ever moves (and they're the weakest franchise in the league) I could see the league wanting them to try LA simply because it's a chance to go from a tiny market to one of the largest in NA.
 
Aren't they already building a new 75,000 capacity stadium named the Los Angeles Football Stadium ($800 million in construction costs owned by Edward Roski), I think he is somewhat legit since he is already a minority owner of the Lakers and Kings. IF they begin building that then I think you'll see an NFL team follow suit soon thereafter but I do hope its the other way around and Toronto gets one before L.A. but will it happen, I'm not so sure.

A couple of questions for you guys:
When do you guys think, if it does happen, the NFL will permanently put a team here? when Ralph Wilson passes? does the Toronto group have the best chance of acquiring the Bills when Wilson goes?
 
Aren't they already building a new 75,000 capacity stadium named the Los Angeles Football Stadium ($800 million in construction costs owned by Edward Roski), I think he is somewhat legit since he is already a minority owner of the Lakers and Kings. IF they begin building that then I think you'll see an NFL team follow suit soon thereafter but I do hope its the other way around and Toronto gets one before L.A. but will it happen, I'm not so sure.

A couple of questions for you guys:
When do you guys think, if it does happen, the NFL will permanently put a team here? when Ralph Wilson passes? does the Toronto group have the best chance of acquiring the Bills when Wilson goes?

Since the web site for that stadium still references "Fourteen years have passed, however, since the last NFL game was played in Los Angeles" and "construction may begin as early as Fourth Quarter 2008" ..... I am not sure it is a live proposal. There is a "news" page with much more current information but it really is just rumour and speculation stuff similar to the stuff we see in the papers here ocassionally (ie..commish says NFL interested in the city type stuff).

I think the timing of when a team lands here is purely based on the cirteria I posted earlier....does Toronto have a favoured position on the Bills? Perhaps they have inside working knowledge of the team but really they could be outbid by any place and any place would get the team....it really is not that complicated.
 
^ exactly. That stadium proposal is basically a pipe dream. It won't be happening any time soon.

And ^ is right. All it takes is someone to outbid them and the dream is over. They can pretty much be moved anywhere someone wants to put them. Toronto's shot and perhaps their only shot is when Ralph dies, because I can't imagine the NFL expanding beyond 32 teams. Obviously no one knows when that'll happen but if he lives 5 more years I'd be surprised because he is 91 now (though for the sake of Bills fans I hope he lives until he's 100+ because the Bills are pretty much all the city has to cling to).
 
^ exactly. That stadium proposal is basically a pipe dream. It won't be happening any time soon.

And ^ is right. All it takes is someone to outbid them and the dream is over. They can pretty much be moved anywhere someone wants to put them. Toronto's shot and perhaps their only shot is when Ralph dies, because I can't imagine the NFL expanding beyond 32 teams. Obviously no one knows when that'll happen but if he lives 5 more years I'd be surprised because he is 91 now (though for the sake of Bills fans I hope he lives until he's 100+ because the Bills are pretty much all the city has to cling to).

You seem to be pretty knowledgeable about NFL matters....I only follow NFL very casually (and only the business side of it since pointy-ball football is my least favourite of the major sports)....why is it people have the belief (and I have heard it a lot) that the NFL won't expand beyond 32 teams? From a competitive point of view, they are the sport with the easiest/largest/cheapest pool of talent so they don't get the same watering down effect of, say, hockey, and there are (or so it appears) markets that could/would support teams. If I were them and there were guys in LA/Toronto/Mexico City willing to pony up with $700 million expansion fees my only question would be "great, now where do I put the 36th team?".

Am I missing something about the NFL?
 
You seem to be pretty knowledgeable about NFL matters....I only follow NFL very casually (and only the business side of it since pointy-ball football is my least favourite of the major sports)....why is it people have the belief (and I have heard it a lot) that the NFL won't expand beyond 32 teams? From a competitive point of view, they are the sport with the easiest/largest/cheapest pool of talent so they don't get the same watering down effect of, say, hockey, and there are (or so it appears) markets that could/would support teams. If I were them and there were guys in LA/Toronto/Mexico City willing to pony up with $700 million expansion fees my only question would be "great, now where do I put the 36th team?".
Am I missing something about the NFL?

I agree...by the way my bet for the 36th team would be Phoenix or maybe even Vegas.
 
You seem to be pretty knowledgeable about NFL matters....I only follow NFL very casually (and only the business side of it since pointy-ball football is my least favourite of the major sports)....why is it people have the belief (and I have heard it a lot) that the NFL won't expand beyond 32 teams? From a competitive point of view, they are the sport with the easiest/largest/cheapest pool of talent so they don't get the same watering down effect of, say, hockey, and there are (or so it appears) markets that could/would support teams. If I were them and there were guys in LA/Toronto/Mexico City willing to pony up with $700 million expansion fees my only question would be "great, now where do I put the 36th team?".

Am I missing something about the NFL?
There's nothing to hold them back from expanding further but 32 is a perfect number in terms of size and competitiveness. As much as there is a huge wealth of NCAA players to pick from, the quality really diminishes at a certain point and I think 32 teams is that point. The gap between the good teams and the bad teams has never been bigger. Detroit didn't win a game two years ago, and this year St Louis, Detroit, Kansas City, Washington, and Cleveland were really really bad. Almost unwatchable (not exaggerating at all). Adding 2 or 4 more teams means 100-200 more players that wouldn't be in the league otherwise.

You're right though, LA/ Toronto/Mexico are logical choices and really LA could support two teams, but the league also uses LA as leverage for getting government funding/deals for stadiums. Many recent stadiums have been built due to pressure from the NFL and the Owners saying "build it, or we move to LA". It's a pretty good bargaining chip to have. Mexico City and Toronto would mean breaking new ground, which i don't think they'd be against doing, but I can't imagine those cities getting a team before LA. It's hard to explain why other than my own hunch and the lack of interest from the league in expanding further. Also, considering the situations with Buffalo and Jacksonville, by expanding, you run the risk of using up all of the potential markets and it's always better to move a team to another market than have one fold all together.

I agree...by the way my bet for the 36th team would be Phoenix or maybe even Vegas.
Phoenix has a team. They've been there since 88.
 
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From the Globe:

Lisa Rochon: Architecture
Toxic soil, tall hurdles, troubling questions
Toronto’s West Don Lands will be home to the 2015 Pan Am Games. So where’s a real plan to clean them up and make them shine?

Published on Friday, Mar. 12, 2010 4:09PM EST Last updated on Friday, Mar. 12, 2010 4:42PM EST

Earlier this week, four months after Toronto won the bid to host the 2015 Pan Am Games, nobody was answering the phone at the Pan Am office, and the website led to nowhere. Increasingly, there is an unsettling feeling that the enormous amount of visionary work required for converting the derelict, toxic ground of the West Don Lands into a sustainable wunderkind of urbanity will not be fully accomplished by the Games’ July, 2015, opening.

Hosting the Games has accelerated by several years the build-out of the West Don Lands, which are located at the mouth of the Don River and stretch west to Cherry Street at Lakeshore Road. The once-industrial lands are ripe with toxicity. Originally planned to be cleaned up, landscaped and built out with mid-rise condominiums over 10 to 12 years in three phases, now more than half of the area is being scheduled for completion by the time of the Games. Up to 2,100 units must be built to accommodate a rotation of 8,500 athletes and coaches.

But even at this week’s unveiling of plans for Underpass Park, designed to convert 2.5 acres of dark wasteland that lurks directly below the Richmond-Adelaide overpass, Waterfront Toronto CEO John Campbell couldn’t say how much remediation of the park’s toxic soil would be required, though some $2.5-million is being set aside for the cleanup.

“Months have gone by. Who is in charge? How are we bringing developers to the table?” asks one developer with experience working on high-profile downtown residential developments, and who, like others interviewed for this column, requested anonymity. “There are too many unknowns right now.”

The West Don Lands belong to a secret part of Toronto where mystery and danger have been tolerated for a long time. Because it was cast off decades ago as an untouchable, dirty site – 80 acres big – the West Don Lands, formerly known as Ataratiri, offers a derelict zone of abandoned urbanity to people living on the edge. A few days ago, I saw a man walking down the median of the Richmond-Adelaide ramps, and, directly south, a couple of pale children being corralled by their father in an empty triangle of land where their home – a blue school bus with curtains – is parked.

Change is under way but, it, too, is difficult to map. If you look over the brightly coloured hoardings near the intersection of Sumach and King Street East – festooned with the words “Building our New Blue Edge” – you’ll see big mounds of churned-up earth and some diggers at work. Next to the Distillery District, at the western flank of the West Don Lands, there are more hoardings and more exclamations of design excellence, sustainability and technology. All this at the future site of the athletes village, an imaginary neighbourhood required to house three times – three times! – the number of athletes accommodated in Vancouver during the Olympics.

Unknown, or at least undeclared right now, is who is actually leading the charge for the build-out of the West Don Lands. The Ontario Realty Corporation, the property manager for the province, owns most of the turf. Waterfront Toronto has spearheaded some necessary and occasionally inspired groundwork: the environmental cleanup and building of the Don River Park, a berm-like, 17-acre flood-protection park; and the engagement of some excellent landscape architects to design edgy parkettes (such as the Underpass Park) and streets that privilege pedestrians, not cars.

But the actual build-out of the Pan Am Village is still being negotiated between Waterfront Toronto and the province’s builders at Infrastructure Ontario, the province’s chief building agency. An announcement, long overdue, regarding the governance issue is expected within weeks.

“There is enough time to build. We’ve done rough estimations for environmental remediation and how much time construction would take,” says George Stewart, senior vice-president of Infrastructure Ontario. “But we certainly can’t dawdle on this.” Brave words, considering that jurisdictional wrangling along the Toronto waterfront is legendary.

Campbell says he’s working closely with the folks at Infrastructure Ontario to decide how to approach the development community about the build-out. Though the clock is ticking, there’s still, unbelievably, no decision on who gets to build what, or how. Will one developer be selected to build the entire project, the way that Millennium Properties built the 2010 Olympic Village? Or will developers be invited to compete on building out individual parcels of land? Campbell doesn’t know. “We haven’t yet decided with Infrastructure Ontario what the packages will be,” he says.

“They’re so flying by the seat of the pants,” says one respected Toronto developer with major urban projects in his portfolio. “Everybody doing their own thing, running their own show.”

The area’s toxicity has been behind much of the delay. An environmental-remediation expert is only now being solicited through a competition call, and will likely finally be appointed next month. Then begins the work of poking around the entire West Don Lands site, gauging how high toxic levels are. It’ll likely be the end of next year before that work is complete.

Once a developer starts seriously digging into the soil, and further tests are conducted, more toxicity may be found. Toxic soil will have to be either moved hundreds of kilometres away to a less-urban site; treated; or capped, which is what Context Development did for its Market Wharf condo tower under construction near St. Lawrence Market, where it built a parking structure that effectively caps the contaminants.

Even a best-case scenario of clean, ready-to-go lands would be difficult to develop on a hurry-up basis over the next several years in Toronto. The federal infrastructure program, involving the construction of new university buildings, recreation facilities and roads, has fully engaged the attention of the construction trades. “Right now, there’s a shortage of trades to do the work we have to do,” says one developer of large-scale residential projects. “Finding people will be a challenge.”

Ian Troop, recently appointed CEO of the Pan Am Games, is a self-described “brand manager at heart” with experience selling product for Procter & Gamble and ConAgra Foods, but he is an unknown quantity in the architecture and development industry. His mandate – to direct the building of new sports facilities and the athletes village, as well as to find thousands of volunteers, among many other jobs – needs to be split with a regeneration expert. Consider the jurisdictional corset that Troop must wear. He’s operating under the direction of the province, building in Toronto and surrounding regions, negotiating with Waterfront Toronto, the City of Toronto and, oh yes, he’s expected to build and run the Pan Am show.

Development of the West Don Lands has already been plagued by serious delays. The District Energy Centre – part of Waterfront Toronto’s commitment to meeting the heating and cooling demands of its new neighbourhoods through a centralized district energy system – has been eagerly anticipated since it was announced two years ago that New York luminary Steven Holl would be designing it with local firm Bortolotto Architects. Construction was to begin at the end of 2008. Alas, the plan to centralize is now being rethought, says Waterfront CEO Campbell. A smaller series of energy minicentres is now being considered for the site, but when or how that will happen has yet to be decided.

Stay tuned for an epic regeneration project that promises to spin, falter and entertain for years to come.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/arts/toxic-soil-tall-hurdles-troubling-questions/article1499086/
___
How to get the Pan Am Athlete’s Village Done, on time, on budget – with gutsy vision
Lisa Rochon

Published on Friday, Mar. 12, 2010 4:09PM EST Last updated on Friday, Mar. 12, 2010 4:30PM EST

Separate parcels of land for different developers

Waterfront Toronto should prepare to release individual parcels of land to the development community. A variety of responses from individual developers and architects will produce more of an engaging urban dynamic. Seven mid-rise buildings will have to be built to provide 2,100 units. Think an entire symphony of architecture rather than a boring pop melody. Think Beethoven, not Britney.

Celebrate the work of architects and developers

Transparency and public engagement should apply. Show the drawings, put the word out. If there’s nothing to celebrate, the work shouldn’t get the privilege of being a permanent fixture in the city.

Create a separate West Don Lands development arm

Ian Troop’s mandate as CEO of the Pan Am Games is impossibly broad. Follow the London 2012 Olympic strategy: Hire a big hitter with experience delivering major regeneration projects to lead the build-out of the athlete’s village.

Establish a West Don Lands design-review committee

River City, the first set of condominiums going up on the north edge of the West Don Lands, is designed with an intriguing Montreal edge by Saucier + Perrotte architectes. Elsewhere on the site where the athletes will be housed, a clarion call needs to go out warning against mid-rise building blocks that could start to resemble East Berlin. A West Don Lands design-review committee with guest critics from outside Canada should be immediately established.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...e-on-budget-with-gutsy-vision/article1499087/

AoD
 
Sorry if I'm turning this thread into a "NFL in Toronto" thread, I apologize as I proceed to ask some more questions about it lol

You guys don't think that this Bills in Toronto series might be the first steps to permanently moving a team here or was it just really about expanding the Bills fanbase? also, does the Ted Rogers passing really diminish the momentum of bringing a team here?
 
If the city ever wants an NFL team (we've debated whether that will ever happen in this thread and others) then it will need another stadium. Skydome isn't big enough and any new team would rather have a new stadium than try to fit in a heavily renovated/reconfigured 30 year old stadium (well 30, by the time they realistically might get a team).

So you dont think there is a realistic chance before 2020?
 
why is it people have the belief (and I have heard it a lot) that the NFL won't expand beyond 32 teams? From a competitive point of view, they are the sport with the easiest/largest/cheapest pool of talent so they don't get the same watering down effect of, say, hockey, and there are (or so it appears) markets that could/would support teams. If I were them and there were guys in LA/Toronto/Mexico City willing to pony up with $700 million expansion fees my only question would be "great, now where do I put the 36th team?".

Am I missing something about the NFL?
They seem to think they're at the point where it's not worth expanding any more. At 36 (and certainly 40) teams, the TV pie would get divided into too many pieces, and most importantly there would be few if any viable cities left that could be used as leverage for an owner who wanted a new stadium and/or had a lease coming up for renewal. The way things are now, L.A., San Antonio, Portland, etc., are all available just in case.

Also, if you're a new owner, you're likely to be at least in your forties, which based on life expectancy and the number of teams in the league might mean winning one championship in an owner's tenure. And that's assuming every team goes through the same cycle of winning of losing equally (and history shows they all don't). Most of these guys are already rich enough, so while the profitability of owning an NFL team is important, it's not crucial. They're in it to satisfy their egos by winning, and extra teams would make that more difficult.

When do you guys think, if it does happen, the NFL will permanently put a team here? when Ralph Wilson passes? does the Toronto group have the best chance of acquiring the Bills when Wilson goes?
I can't see any Toronto bidder competing with American suitors because there are far more of them, and because a Toronto owner would almost certainly have to finance a new stadium (an extra billion at least), while some U.S. city will jump at the chance to partially or fully finance a stadium to get on the NFL map. There's no possibility of such a deal in Toronto.

I also believe, based on the examples of the Jays and the Raptors, that the NFL sees little or no added value to the league of a team in Toronto. It would do nothing for U.S. ratings or ad revenues, two key bottom lines. Therefore I think the NFL will push for an American buyer, and a U.S. destination should the Bills leave Buffalo.

You guys don't think that this Bills in Toronto series might be the first steps to permanently moving a team here or was it just really about expanding the Bills fanbase? also, does the Ted Rogers passing really diminish the momentum of bringing a team here?
If it was a first step, it has been a miserable failure. Rogers has been thoroughly embarrassed, and has canned executives because of the Bills in Toronto fiasco. For Ralph Wilson, it was strictly a money deal, and he's laughing all the way to the Detroit.

The NFL only allows individual owners (or small groups), not corporations, so not having someone as personally wealthy as Ted Rogers reduces the chances, especially since he was on record as saying he wanted an NFL team. The only other guy interested was Larry Tannenbaum, but some are speculating that the disaster of the Bills deal may have scared him off.
 

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