Toronto 2015 Pan American Games

[Marko]

And after all, if it wasn't for the spark provided by the Argos and the CFL, the Dome either never would have been built, or would have been finished years later.

You're clearly giving far too much credit to the Argos and CFL. I know they were much bigger and stronger in '80s, but the ~10 home dates a year never woudl have justified the building of the Dome. If it wasn't for the Blue Jays and their ~80 home dates per year, the financing for the Dome never woud have gone through. Not even close.

 

[jswag]

I propose that any new Olympic stadium be temporarily upsized for the games, downsized afterward, and given/leased/whatever to the Argonauts (you know, a team that's already here). This would reduce costs, and guarantee it's use post-Olympics.

You're absolutely right about that. This would be the best solution-- though it would be an interesting challenge for an architect to design a building that goes from 60 000+ seats to 25 000. I'm sure it's been done successfully somewhere, anyone have any examples?

My first thought was Montreal's Autostade, which was designed so that it could be dismantled and moved after Expo '67 (never happened).

 

[jn_12]

Generation W means that it was the CFL Grey Cup held in 1982 that spurred the idea of a domed stadium.

I propose that any new Olympic stadium be temporarily upsized for the games, downsized afterward, and given/leased/whatever to the Argonauts (you know, a team that's already here). This would reduce costs, and guarantee it's use post-Olympics.

Really? you think building something and then tearing it down to a usable size for the CFL makes more sense than perhaps using it for an NFL stadium should we get a team between now and then? At least for an NFL team you'd have the potential to share the cost of building it or selling/leasing it to the NFL team which could afford it. I think it'd be a waste to build 80,000 seats and then eliminate half of them, especially considering how much people tend to be up in arms over the cost of these things.

 

[TOareaFan]

Generation W means that it was the CFL Grey Cup held in 1982 that spurred the idea of a domed stadium.



Really? you think building something and then tearing it down to a usable size for the CFL makes more sense than perhaps using it for an NFL stadium should we get a team between now and then? At least for an NFL team you'd have the potential to share the cost of building it or selling/leasing it to the NFL team which could afford it. I think it'd be a waste to build 80,000 seats and then eliminate half of them, especially considering how much people tend to be up in arms over the cost of these things.

It has been done lots. The two that immediately spring to mind are the Olympic stadium in Atlanta (right after the games reconfigured to be a smaller baseball stadium) and the Commonwealth stadium in Manchester (now the City of Manchester stadium and home to Manchester City FC). Even the oval in Richmond is being reconfigured to a multi-purpose community centre.

The reality is that you build it for the games and plan for after games use based on what the city needs. If, by the time any Olympic bid came around, we had an NFL team that would be the best post-games plan...but I don't think a good plan is "build 80k seats, keep them unused and hope that one day the NFL notices" if there is no NFL team then the post games plans can't be for NFL.

That said, I believe the whole discussion is moot because we are farther away from Olympics in this city than we are from NFL and if we ever get the Olympics our dliema will be "can that NFL stadium we have be of use for the bid" rather than "can our new Olympic stadium attract the NFL"

 

[jswag]

That said, I believe the whole discussion is moot because we are farther away from Olympics in this city than we are from NFL and if we ever get the Olympics our dliema will be "can that NFL stadium we have be of use for the bid" rather than "can our new Olympic stadium attract the NFL"

I agree that the discussion is moot, but for different reasons. I think that we'll get the Olympics before the NFL. Given the dismal showing of the Bills series here in Toronto, I don't think there is as much of an appetite for live NFL football in Toronto as people seem to believe. In addition, we know that the NFL and CFL have had co-operative agreements before and though the CFL wouldn't die with the arrival of a Toronto NFL team, it would be seriously disabled. I don't think the NFL wants to be responsible for the death of a unique form of football.

I should also say that I believe we'll get the Olympics before we get an NFL team for the reasons I just stated and a few others. Success with the Pan Am Games is generally considered a warm-up for the Olympics (and in fact there are more athletes at the Pan Am Games anyway). Also, Toronto has bid three times (I think) and been the victim of consequences out of their control (corruption, need to appease China). So, as it's been discussed in other threads, as long as Quebec City doesn't get the winter games, Toronto will have a good shot.

 

[jn_12]

It has been done lots. The two that immediately spring to mind are the Olympic stadium in Atlanta (right after the games reconfigured to be a smaller baseball stadium) and the Commonwealth stadium in Manchester (now the City of Manchester stadium and home to Manchester City FC). Even the oval in Richmond is being reconfigured to a multi-purpose community centre.

The reality is that you build it for the games and plan for after games use based on what the city needs. If, by the time any Olympic bid came around, we had an NFL team that would be the best post-games plan...but I don't think a good plan is "build 80k seats, keep them unused and hope that one day the NFL notices" if there is no NFL team then the post games plans can't be for NFL.

That said, I believe the whole discussion is moot because we are farther away from Olympics in this city than we are from NFL and if we ever get the Olympics our dliema will be "can that NFL stadium we have be of use for the bid" rather than "can our new Olympic stadium attract the NFL"

London 2012's stadium is being partially torn down as well. I just think if you're going to build something like that, you'd probably prefer not to have to tear down half of it when the event is over.
I'm hoping the two can go hand in hand, and I think if we got the Olympics the NFL team would soon follow or vice versa (well perhaps the NFL team coming first might be a long shot since it would have to happen before we bid, and odds are we won't be seeing an NFL team here inthe next 3 years).

I agree that the discussion is moot, but for different reasons. I think that we'll get the Olympics before the NFL. Given the dismal showing of the Bills series here in Toronto, I don't think there is as much of an appetite for live NFL football in Toronto as people seem to believe. In addition, we know that the NFL and CFL have had co-operative agreements before and though the CFL wouldn't die with the arrival of a Toronto NFL team, it would be seriously disabled. I don't think the NFL wants to be responsible for the death of a unique form of football.

I should also say that I believe we'll get the Olympics before we get an NFL team for the reasons I just stated and a few others. Success with the Pan Am Games is generally considered a warm-up for the Olympics (and in fact there are more athletes at the Pan Am Games anyway). Also, Toronto has bid three times (I think) and been the victim of consequences out of their control (corruption, need to appease China). So, as it's been discussed in other threads, as long as Quebec City doesn't get the winter games, Toronto will have a good shot.

Success at the Pan Ams isn't considered a warm-up. Only Rio has done that.
Toronto has only bid twice.
And the reason the Bills in Toronto has been a dud is because Rogers over-estimated the price people would be willing to pay (to the point they were the most expensive games in the NFL) and originally telling people they had to buy all 8 games up front. Also, the Bills aren't a Toronto team. Why should we come out and support a team that represents another city, that not many people in the GTA care about? I have no doubt that a Toronto team would be well supported if it was the Toronto Bills instead of the Buffalo Bills.
Also, Toronto isn't the be all and end all of the CFL. In fact, I'd argue the Ontario teams are the weakest supported and weakest financially in the whole league, and people out in Regina or Vancouver aren't going to call if Toronto has an NFL team just the same way as they don't care much about the Raptors.

 

[bleeepbluuup]

Given the dismal showing of the Bills series here in Toronto, I don't think there is as much of an appetite for live NFL football in Toronto as people seem to believe.

The only thing that the Bills series showed was that very few people like to be ripped off. Those ticket prices were completely stupid.

 

[W. K. Lis]

With the Pan Am Games coming in 2015, that means languages other than English and French. Of course, there is little French to be seen in Toronto. Having said that, Spanish and Portuguese will have to added as well.

That comes to signs. We have to get away from the English only signs. More pictograms and we have to adapt more ISO standard signs. Starting with the EXIT signs.



The exit signs we see in Toronto are in English. Now, I don't think we should include the French SORTIE and the Spanish & Portuguese translation equivalents to the English EXIT. Instead we should adapt the ISO Standard for egress.



There is an article on the war over exit signs at this link.

The text-based American exit sign has its origins in the 1911 Triangle Shirtwaist Fire, a blaze in a downtown Manhattan garment factory that killed 146 workers. Although signage was not primarily to blame for those fatalities—many factory doors were bolted shut in an effort to keep employees from slipping out—the exits were not clearly marked. That massive loss of life spurred the National Fire Protection Association, which had been founded in 1896 by insurance companies to develop protocols for property preservation, to take up what it called "life safety": the business of getting people out of burning buildings intact. In the 1930s and '40s, the NFPA developed criteria for emergency-exit signage, evaluating contrast levels and testing different sizes and stroke widths for lettering, eventually publishing standards that were adopted by state and local governments across the land. Robert Solomon, who runs the NFPA's Building Fire Protection and Life Safety departments, explains why the original designs used English prose instead of symbols: "The U.S. was more parochial then." He suspects that designers never considered whether foreign residents "knew what E-X-I-T meant."

 

[jswag]

Perhaps you guys are right about the Bills tickets being overcharged for. But he only did that to attempt at a profit because of a too-small stadium and what I presume was a high a fee from the NFL/Bills.
Still, I think since Ted Rogers passed there is less momentum towards bringing an NFL team here. It's a significant investment any way you slice it, and it's also not a guaranteed success. The last expansion team fee was $700 million (Houston Texans) and that is generally seen as the last expansion team for the league. In other words, the team will have to be moved from somewhere else. How interested are American networks in showing nationally a game featuring, for example, the Jacksonville Jaguars vs. the Toronto Bills? The NHL is similar to the NFL in that they are more interested in growing in large American media markets, i.e. L.A. for starters.

Also, Toronto isn't the be all and end all of the CFL. In fact, I'd argue the Ontario teams are the weakest supported and weakest financially in the whole league, and people out in Regina or Vancouver aren't going to call if Toronto has an NFL team just the same way as they don't care much about the Raptors.

I didn't mean to say that Toronto is the be all and end all of the CFL. Quite the opposite, I would agree. The western teams would probably survive. However, you have to give it some perspective-- the Argos are the oldest pro sports organization in North America for starters; also, how embarrassing would it be for a Canadian football league to not have a franchise in the largest city in the country? I think if you ask 10 CFL fans from across the country, nine of them will say having a Toronto team is important to the league.

That comes to signs. We have to get away from the English only signs. More pictograms and we have to adapt more ISO standard signs. Starting with the EXIT signs.

Couldn't agree more. Those "EXIT" signs have always bothered me. A full audit of the transit signage around the city should also be done-- I recall that the signs directing people to the subway in Union Station use a TTC logo instead of a Subway symbol, for instance.

 

[MetroMan]

More pictograms and we have to adapt more ISO standard signs. Starting with the EXIT signs.



The exit signs we see in Toronto are in English. Now, I don't think we should include the French SORTIE and the Spanish & Portuguese translation equivalents to the English EXIT.

EXIT signs are everywhere in Portugal and Spain. It's become as much a universal sign for EXIT in any language as the STOP sign.

 

[GenerationW]

You're clearly giving far too much credit to the Argos and CFL. I know they were much bigger and stronger in '80s, but the ~10 home dates a year never woudl have justified the building of the Dome. If it wasn't for the Blue Jays and their ~80 home dates per year, the financing for the Dome never woud have gone through. Not even close.

I knew I would smoke someone out.

Still, I think since Ted Rogers passed there is less momentum towards bringing an NFL team here.

Even though he was months away from leaving Rogers, I've been told Paul Godfrey was the driving force behind the Bills deal. With him gone as well as Ted (who could be talked into anything if there was a civic angle attached), I can't see Rogers continuing this arrangement.

And then maybe my damn internet will cost less.

 

[jn_12]

I think Godfrey and Tanenbaum could still do it if they wanted. Tanenbaum is worth 800million+. The Bills are worth roughly the same as Tanenbaum. But I agree, with Rogers gone, I'm not sure the momentum is there, but I wouldn't be surprised if when Ralph Wilson passes a bunch of Toronto guys with money get a bid quick together for the impending auction.

 

[TOareaFan]

I agree that the discussion is moot, but for different reasons. I think that we'll get the Olympics before the NFL. Given the dismal showing of the Bills series here in Toronto, I don't think there is as much of an appetite for live NFL football in Toronto as people seem to believe. In addition, we know that the NFL and CFL have had co-operative agreements before and though the CFL wouldn't die with the arrival of a Toronto NFL team, it would be seriously disabled. I don't think the NFL wants to be responsible for the death of a unique form of football.

I should also say that I believe we'll get the Olympics before we get an NFL team for the reasons I just stated and a few others. Success with the Pan Am Games is generally considered a warm-up for the Olympics (and in fact there are more athletes at the Pan Am Games anyway). Also, Toronto has bid three times (I think) and been the victim of consequences out of their control (corruption, need to appease China). So, as it's been discussed in other threads, as long as Quebec City doesn't get the winter games, Toronto will have a good shot.

I think the "failure" of the Bills series here has more to do with pricing than anything else......they charge, by far, the highest average ticket in the NFL for one or two games a year for a team that the city's sports fans feel no "ownership" in.

I would suggest that any Olympic bid is, at least, 4 years away (2014 is when bidding would happen for 2020 no?) and possibly longer. I just think that NFL will happen here before Olympics......particularly if we want to use a successful Pan Am games as a playing card cause that would mean waiting until after 2015 for an Olympic bid so you would be looking at the 2024 Olympics as the earliest games to capitalize on the Pan Ams

 

[TOareaFan]

Also, Toronto isn't the be all and end all of the CFL. In fact, I'd argue the Ontario teams are the weakest supported and weakest financially in the whole league, and people out in Regina or Vancouver aren't going to call if Toronto has an NFL team just the same way as they don't care much about the Raptors.

The importance that Toronto has to the CFL is in TV numbers. While game attendance is not great, it is by far the biggest TV market and contributes to the very high ratings on TSN. A legitimate fear would be the TV ratings plummeting if the league had no presence/relavence to the Toronto market.

 

[W. K. Lis]

EXIT signs are everywhere in Portugal and Spain. It's become as much a universal sign for EXIT in any language as the STOP sign.

Pan Am Games are for the countries in North and South America. Last I heard, Portugal and Spain are in Europe. English, French, Spanish, and Portuguese are the languages spoken and read in most of North and South America. I think that the GTA should make sure that most of their signs are pictograms or else include all the languages spoken at the Pan Am games.