DouginTO
New Member
Why does it have to be the same height as FCP? Make it taller and slimmer. It’s too bulky for this site as is. Mountains are more interesting when they are different heights and so are skylines.
Toronto 191 Bay | 301.74m | 64s | QuadReal | Hariri Pontarini
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officedweller
Senior Member
The size is impressive, but I'd rather see a slimmer tower that didn't crowd CCN so much.
The style of the tower also looks haphazard.
Compare the classical symmetry of CCN and the clean sleek lines of CCW.
This one is a mess.
It would be nice if they played off the rectangular form of CCW and the setbacks of CCN
and created a modernist office tower with offsets that create more open space in the cramped plaza area.
(i.e. staggered upper storey blocks)
The tower cold also use some roof decks.
How many office towers in Toronto have roof decks?
The style of the tower also looks haphazard.
Compare the classical symmetry of CCN and the clean sleek lines of CCW.
This one is a mess.
It would be nice if they played off the rectangular form of CCW and the setbacks of CCN
and created a modernist office tower with offsets that create more open space in the cramped plaza area.
(i.e. staggered upper storey blocks)
The tower cold also use some roof decks.
How many office towers in Toronto have roof decks?
Bogtrotter
Senior Member
I don't see a mess at all with the tower portion, please no to setbacks or any retro nod to CCN. The base could do with some reworking, and perhaps slimmer and/or taller might enhance the somewhat bulky appearance of the tower. Very curious as to why they chose the exact same height as FirstCan.
maestro
Senior Member
I agree with others. A contrived design to wow people into thinking this is better than it is.
I don't like that this is yet another rewriting of a modernist era design being the Commerce Court block. 21 Melinda and 30 Wellington are solid nondescript blocks that frame the square nicely and provide the space for the "stars" of the block to shine being Commerce Court West and South. All this does is turn a well thought out master plan into a collection of random tower with the weakest design being front and centre. It's the equivalent of the add-ons to the TD Centre over the years and within the reality of replacing the architectural mastery of the banking pavilion with a new tower.
I don't like that this is yet another rewriting of a modernist era design being the Commerce Court block. 21 Melinda and 30 Wellington are solid nondescript blocks that frame the square nicely and provide the space for the "stars" of the block to shine being Commerce Court West and South. All this does is turn a well thought out master plan into a collection of random tower with the weakest design being front and centre. It's the equivalent of the add-ons to the TD Centre over the years and within the reality of replacing the architectural mastery of the banking pavilion with a new tower.
Bogtrotter
Senior Member
Good points, pretty hard to put that amount of office space on this sight and be remotely faithful to the master plan. The space currently reminds me of Place Ville Marie, which is being reworked and enhanced, but you pretty much obliterate that with this massive tower.
pman
Senior Member
While I take your point, the original CCS and CCW deaden that entire block of Wellington. The former presents a blank wall to the street. The latter, an obtrusive parking garage entrance. The proposed design would be a lot less hostile and boring for anyone walking on that block (though I guess the garage entrance would have to stay in some form).
stjames2queenwest
Senior Member
adma
Superstar
Honestly; "deadening" or not, I *can* see a Docomomo-ish outcry a la York Square brewing over CCE and CCS--it's the Pei firm in its 70s "neo-rationalist" phase; and in trashing these, you basically trash the entire original Commerce Court ensemble.
(And it's a presently ill-understood and hence imperiled phase of Pei...cf this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Church_of_Christ,_Scientist_(Washington,_D.C.) .)
(And it's a presently ill-understood and hence imperiled phase of Pei...cf this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Church_of_Christ,_Scientist_(Washington,_D.C.) .)
Both phases of CIBC Square add up to the largest Toronto office complex since the TD Centre, of which phase 1 is now under construction. Is that what you mean by 'Union'?
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maestro
Senior Member
I interpret an overwrought glass atrium from the renderings. It's less hostile but not enough to rip apart a long established block by a known design firm. It's getting too much here in Toronto. Everything is up for renewal. I appreciate the business side too. East and South are less than ideal from a pro forma basis but, they are modest spaces compared to the block's overall square footage. BCIMC is doing okay with Commerce Court with the 1.5 million square foot Commerce Court West. This is less than ideal too but, still better than renewing Commerce Court . Work towards assembling 48 and 60 Yonge and squeeze a tower there. The Hotel Victoria is already screwed with this proposal.
maestro
Senior Member
Also have to consider how active BCIMC has been in upping their real estate portfolios.
Lyphe
Active Member
Love this project.
bilked
Senior Member
Certainly a handsome pair being lost here:
https://www.google.ca/maps/place/30...3c072849819c8a!8m2!3d43.6487142!4d-79.3755403
Inviolable? I don't know. But I'm disappointed there's no attempt by HP to at least work with these facades, particularly CCE as the current HP design already contemplates enveloping a building of the same dimensions as CCE.
https://www.google.ca/maps/place/30...3c072849819c8a!8m2!3d43.6487142!4d-79.3755403
Inviolable? I don't know. But I'm disappointed there's no attempt by HP to at least work with these facades, particularly CCE as the current HP design already contemplates enveloping a building of the same dimensions as CCE.
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duper
Active Member
Apologies if this has already been asked, but I wonder why they are not including the spire height in the official height. That counts, as far as Emporis is concerned.
Northern Light
Superstar
I don't mind the new tower at all, though I'm really getting tired of dull colour pallets and I do wish 'detailing' could be more original.
I cannot bring myself to lament the loss CCS or CCW.
I realize some have an appreciation for the style, such as it is.
I find the architecture of the existing to be somewhere between dull and oppressive, and whatever my hopes for a somewhat greater ambition, there is little question to me
that this proposal would be a tangible improvement.
A final thought for the moment would be that I do find it unfortunate the property and Yonge/Wellington has not been included.
I don't think anyone excepts that non-descript 'tower' to remain in the medium term, and I would have loved to see any proposal here offer a cohesive block.
My concern being that we will see the developer of the Yonge site trying to density-cram in a future proposal which will not be idea either for that site or for the CC3 to which it will relate.
I cannot bring myself to lament the loss CCS or CCW.
I realize some have an appreciation for the style, such as it is.
I find the architecture of the existing to be somewhere between dull and oppressive, and whatever my hopes for a somewhat greater ambition, there is little question to me
that this proposal would be a tangible improvement.
A final thought for the moment would be that I do find it unfortunate the property and Yonge/Wellington has not been included.
I don't think anyone excepts that non-descript 'tower' to remain in the medium term, and I would have loved to see any proposal here offer a cohesive block.
My concern being that we will see the developer of the Yonge site trying to density-cram in a future proposal which will not be idea either for that site or for the CC3 to which it will relate.