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Time to ban car advertising?

Not a very successful covert form since everyone has been repeating this idea (advertising is mind control) since the 1950's or so. Ask yourself, is your mind being controlled by advertising, or are you controlling your own mind? It is easy to blame others for one's poor choices, it is much tougher to take responsibility for one's own actions.

To say that is to say mind control does not exist at all really. Even with drugs and alcohol judgement is impaired, not controlled. It says that advertising works because the general population is simply stupid. It says societal norms are as much a result of thought as they are a result of stupidity. Perhaps that is true, but if it is then how do we deal with all the dumb people that are being convinced to buy something based on advertising rather than a thought process that looks at needs, technical aspects of the product, the price, etc, etc. Do we really need to introduce "How to buy a product" classes to our curriculums? Until advertising no longer works, which obviously it does, people aren't fully researching their purchases... they are buying into advertising.
 
^ Snark all you like, but this kind of thing is not a joke - calls for these sorts of controls will only become more assertive from now on, and rightfully so.

Hello totalitarianism.
 
To say that you are pro-environment, but against people "buying new cars every 3 years" is silly. New cars are generally more fuel efficient, thus better for the environment.

And of course the government wants the auto industry to be successful, especially in Ontario. I guess you'd rather see all these people lose their jobs. Why would anybody want the auto industry to fail?
 
"To say that you are pro-environment, but against people "buying new cars every 3 years" is silly. New cars are generally more fuel efficient, thus better for the environment."

The amount of toxic materials that go into a vehicle and then into the ground make their purchase a major hit on the environment. In 2004 an average of 90 barrels of oil went into making the average vehicle, some of the parts are even made of oil like tires. It's an energy wasting chemical laden process and one of the reasons why there have been recent warnings about that new car smell. I'm sure that smart cars use less material but even a smart car probably weighs 100x what a bike does. We sure don't replace subway or streetcar every 3 years.

"And of course the government wants the auto industry to be successful, especially in Ontario. I guess you'd rather see all these people lose their jobs. Why would anybody want the auto industry to fail?"

The same arguments have been used for the tobacco industry and the "defence" industry. Governments have a choice over what industries they want to promote. Money invested in transit has been shown to create more jobs than that spent on vehicle related infrastructure. You can have factories making bicycles and streetcars or factories making cars and trucks.

McGuinty says he would love to pay his share of the cost-shared Provincial social services, but gosh darned it the cash register is empty. They just gave their 4rth bailout to timber companies (another over 200 million+), they have a billion dollar reserve fund for auto companies and they gave money hundreds of millions more to the Windsor/Niagara casinos. Giving away hundreds of millions to major corporations is such a regular event it doesn't merit much, if any, coverage in the media. Newspapers have sometimes shown how government subsidies sometimes amount to over a million dollars per job. Since they are not paying workers a million dollars, it is obvious that the money is actually going to the wealthy multinational corporations themselves.

Could it be that corporations step up to the plate, when McGuinty holds election ($$ a plate) fundraisers which are needed in order to win. Neoliberal philosophy also plays a role since social services are viewed as negatives while corporate subsidies are viewed positively. It's a point of view that Paul Martin, the McGuinty Liberals, Harris/ Eves/Tory, Blair & Bush all agree on. They'd surely love to give money for services for the public but it's all being reserved for more important purposes.

Traditional conservatives & libertarians believed that the government should stay out of the market, while neoliberals and neoconservatives think that taxes should be used to subsidize corporations, police, military and roads. They also believe that the bulk of taxing should fall on the poor-- lottery, cigarettes, beer, user fees.

Orwellian terms that mean the opposite of their intentions also seem to be popular; a made in Canada policy, the third way, clean skys policy, no child left behind, common sense revolution, patriot act, war against terrorism..
 
Your brining forth arguments that have nothing to do with anyone's right to advertise their product. I agree with some of what you're saying, but it has nothing to do with the title of the thread.
 
One thing I would like to see is complete eradication of subsidies to automakers, however they should be able to advertise all they want.
 
"Hello totalitarianism."

Curses! Our insidious, diabolical intentions exposed!

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How will we ever be able to impose our tyrannical will upon the wretched peons with tireless, sharp-witted Super Defenders of 'Freedom' like you thwarting our evil schemes at every turn?

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Please...
 
If I had to place my bets on the success of public education versus advertising, I think I know which one I would choose. The government was smart enough to turn off the cigarette advertising machine before any drops occurred. Can a million dollar government education campaigns compete with billion dollar advertising budgets

So the cigarette companies were the ones who informed you that they added accelerants to their products so they would burn faster? Did they also tell you all about the risks associated with second hand smoke? Did the cigarette companies also tell you all about how smoking increased your chances for acquiring a variety of cancers? Did that cigarette advertising inform you that their product was the leading cause of lung cancer? I see this stuff in all the public health material, not in tobacco ads. Maybe we read different magazines.

I would be interested to see a study (not funded by a tobacco company) that shows that public eductation campaigns had larger effects than eliminating advertising, increasing taxes and regulating cigarettes out of more and more locations. I don't think vehicle manufacturers or any other polluters are shaking in their boots that another "one ton challenge" or "protect nature' campaign is comin

With respect to smoking, the number of people using tobacco continues to drop. I doubt it was taxes. There are jurisdictions in the United States where cigarettes are cheaper than here, but the rate of smoking is lower. I was living in Montreal during the large tax hikes on cigarettes and saw first hand how people simply got around this issue by purchasing cigarettes from smugglers. It did nothing to reduce rates of smoking by any significant degree, it just changed avenues of purchase. Governments lost revenue and smugglers got wealthy.

As for comparing cigarettes and cars, that's like comparing apples and urchins.

To say that is to say mind control does not exist at all really. Even with drugs and alcohol judgement is impaired, not controlled. It says that advertising works because the general population is simply stupid. It says societal norms are as much a result of thought as they are a result of stupidity. Perhaps that is true, but if it is then how do we deal with all the dumb people that are being convinced to buy something based on advertising rather than a thought process that looks at needs, technical aspects of the product, the price, etc, etc. Do we really need to introduce "How to buy a product" classes to our curriculums? Until advertising no longer works, which obviously it does, people aren't fully researching their purchases... they are buying into advertising

I never said "mind control does not exist at all." I doubt there is anything close to total mind control out there. If there is, I'd like to see the proof. If advertising is supposed to be mind control, then it is a terribly weak form and requires the person who is supposed to be controlled to play along. That is hardly a good definition of mind control, in my opinion.

Advertising is all about getting seen. Tens of millions of people may see an advertisement for a product posted in tens of thousands of locations, and never buy it. The fact is that advertisers need lots of exposure to interest a relatively few people. Most advertising is not even about getting you to buy the product; it is about product purchase reinforcement. Some forms of advertising attempt to create a sense of need, in other words, taking advantage of a persons vanity or insecurity to get them to think that a certain product will enhance their existence. It all works to varying degrees, but is hardly totallistic in terms of control.

Enviro, you suggest that I am calling people stupid, and I have not done so. In fact, I am saying that people can and do think for themselves. There is plenty of information out there on, for example, the dangers of smoking, yet people smoke. There is public transit, warning about smog, concerns about gas prices and so on, yet people choose to get into a car by themselves every day. Is that the result of advertising? Clearly the public service "advertising" to do the contrary (don't smoke, take transit) failed as well. Again, so much for mind control in advertising.

And just because people don't "fully research" their product purchases does not automatically mean they succumbed to advertising.
 
Advertising is all about getting seen. Tens of millions of people may see an advertisement for a product posted in tens of thousands of locations, and never buy it.

So why have scantily clad women in a beer ad, talk of freedom and excitment in a car ad, and people in nice clothes having more serious discussions in a financial ad. Somehow ads have come up with formulas that work for each industry based on statistical research and it goes beyond simply saying "here is a product, buy it if you want" and usually the ads barely touch on technical specs or product details.

Some forms of advertising attempt to create a sense of need, in other words, taking advantage of a persons vanity or insecurity to get them to think that a certain product will enhance their existence. It all works to varying degrees, but is hardly totallistic in terms of control.

It works well and it doesn't need to be total mind control... that is why I termed it "mind control light". What is peer pressure or the pressure to conform... isn't it a form of "mind control light" if doing what you haven't thought out is automatically the right thing to do? Why do so many people believe that when they have a kid they need to get an SUV or minivan when the vast majority grew up in families that did without quite easily? This creation of a sense of need is "mind control light" in my opinion. If cigarette ads can be banned (now that the negatives are known) then why not car ads. How can society convince people to think more about what they need and not get into buying due to product marketing and a need to keep up with the Jones'.

There is plenty of information out there on, for example, the dangers of smoking, yet people smoke. There is public transit, warning about smog, concerns about gas prices and so on, yet people choose to get into a car by themselves every day. Is that the result of advertising? Clearly the public service "advertising" to do the contrary (don't smoke, take transit) failed as well. Again, so much for mind control in advertising.

The information that is out there for smoking will not combat people with a pre-existing addiction for one thing, and as for new smokers I would suggest that either the advertisments to stop smoking were not strong enough to combat peer pressure and other forms of media enticing people to smoke. To say that public service advertising regarding smoking has had no effect would be untrue in my opinion as much less youth are becoming smokers than in the past. Even when I was in high school 15 years ago we knew the dangers of smoking but smoking was much higher then than now. How many warnings about smog ads, and positive public transit ads, etc have you seen compared to car ads?

Perhaps an alternative is that in order to spend a dollar on car ads a dollar must be given to transit for transit ads. The TTC budget for advertisements should be up there with the money spent on car ads to make sure people know about the transit opition and paint it in a positive light... perhaps show some hot chicks sitting on the bus across the aisle, a guy flirting with them, someone listening to an iPod while reading the paper and having a coffee with the caption "Try this on your ride to work". The all new T1 subway car with chauffer, air conditioning, and optional iPod stereo... come try it today at your TTC dealer. We should create this false sense of need on things actually a benefit to society.
 
So why have scantily clad women in a beer ad, talk of freedom and excitment in a car ad, and people in nice clothes having more serious discussions in a financial ad. Somehow ads have come up with formulas that work for each industry based on statistical research and it goes beyond simply saying "here is a product, buy it if you want" and usually the ads barely touch on technical specs or product details

Find me one advertising campaign that measurably hooks, oh, fifteen percent of viewers into buying the product and you've found yourself a miracle. Most don't come close to that. And does not matter how many romantic sunsets, big tits or fast cars abound.

It works well and it doesn't need to be total mind control... that is why I termed it "mind control light". What is peer pressure or the pressure to conform... isn't it a form of "mind control light"

No, you said advertising is mind control. Peer pressure is something entirely different. Peer pressure is derived from the interaction with people you know, who are of the same age group and so on, and with whom you have a relationship. The communication is personal, two way and interactive. Advertising is mass media, its audience is anonymous, it is completely reliant on technology that affects how people get the message, and feedback from the audience is always delayed. Peer pressure and advertising are very different. You are confusing categories here.

his creation of a sense of need is "mind control light" in my opinion.

Yeah, so that's what you want to call it. Those other people might have an entirely different opnion than yours.

The information that is out there for smoking will not combat people with a pre-existing addiction for one thing,

Except for all those thousands of smokers who go to see their doctor for help. The information seems to have helped them to deal with their "pre-exisiting addiction." You may not want to neglect them.

Even when I was in high school 15 years ago we knew the dangers of smoking but smoking was much higher then than now. How many warnings about smog ads, and positive public transit ads, etc have you seen compared to car ads?

That's why I said comparing cars to smoking was like comparing apples to urchins. And smoking rates overall have dropped over the last fifteen years here.

Perhaps an alternative is that in order to spend a dollar on car ads a dollar must be given to transit for transit ads.

What? More ads? More evil mind control (lite)? How about real information? Many people, if treated with respect, will actually listen to a reasonable argument. Some may even change if the ideas make sense to them. You won't convince everyone, though. That'll never happen.
 
Find me one advertising campaign that measurably hooks, oh, fifteen percent of viewers into buying the product and you've found yourself a miracle. Most don't come close to that.

It doesn't need to hook 15%... one car off the road is one car off the road.

What? More ads? More evil mind control (lite)? How about real information? Many people, if treated with respect, will actually listen to a reasonable argument. Some may even change if the ideas make sense to them. You won't convince everyone, though. That'll never happen.

Why not? Are people being treated with respect with beer ads and being spoken to like logical thoughtful individuals who are going to taste each beer, check out the price, and make a decision intelligently... or are they being told "party animals drink this because its cool". Did iPod capture the market because it is the only mp3 player with those features, or did it capture the market because Apple knows how market a product. Were all those iPod silhouette ads all over the city out there because Apple thought people didn't know iPods exist, or because by constantly reinforcing the thought of iPods being hip and cool sales increase? There are a tonne of other equally capable mp3 players out there, some just as good looking, that didn't get a fraction of the market the iPod did. Why? Because by constantly showing people iPods people were convinced to buy iPods regardless of what else might be out there. They were convinced not to think about alternatives. Toyota doesn't convince everyone to buy a Toyota but it finds advertising money to be money well spent... because it works. It doesn't work for everyone, it probably doesn't work for 15% of the people, but it works for a portion of the population. Why not spend a similar amount on TTC advertising to capture an equal sized portion of the population? On the other hand why not prevent car advertising so that those few people who would be swayed to buy a car because of the positive reinforcement of the ads could be prevented from ever reaching that decision to buy a car they don't need or a car bigger than they need?
 
Public transit, bicycles, etc. have their place, but are uselss for some types of trips. Cars also have their place.

For the anti-car people, what is your alternative suggestion for getting people from anywhere to anywhere at any time of day in an area as vast as the GTA? What is your alternative when people have lots of "stuff" to take?

I've heard lots of criticism, but no suggestions of what people should use instead for personal private transportation.
 
There is plenty of information out there on, for example, the dangers of smoking, yet people smoke. There is public transit, warning about smog, concerns about gas prices and so on, yet people choose to get into a car by themselves every day. Is that the result of advertising? Clearly the public service "advertising" to do the contrary (don't smoke, take transit) failed as well.

I dont think it is fair to say that because people did not enmasse move out of their cars and onto buses during the last transit advertising campaign. Car companies have multi billion dollar campaigns that continue to build upon the car culture year after year. The TTC gets a couple million, which it can barely afford to give up in the first place, and has to do as much with as little as possible. All one has to do is turn on a TV and watch commercials for even just 15 minutes and you see very quickly just how few "public service" commercials there are compared to those being aired by private companies.

Find me one advertising campaign that measurably hooks, oh, fifteen percent of viewers into buying the product and you've found yourself a miracle. Most don't come close to that. And does not matter how many romantic sunsets, big tits or fast cars abound.

That depends on what length of time you are viewing the effects of the campaign on consumers. Think about the McDonalds campaigns to attract children, Wal-Mart's Everyday Low Prices, Miller Lite, Bud Light, or even Starbucks and their non-advertising marketing programs. There are numerous examples of campaigns that have not only attracted a high number of consumers to buy, and regularly buy their products, but also elevate the companies/products into such a status where no one even questions it, or those who do question it are often ridiculed and labelled 'advertising hating commies' or something similair to that.

What? More ads? More evil mind control (lite)? How about real information? Many people, if treated with respect, will actually listen to a reasonable argument. Some may even change if the ideas make sense to them. You won't convince everyone, though. That'll never happen.

There is nothing wrong with countering advertising with advertising. But it does have it limits. You can have a smart advertising campaign on a shoe string budget that could help attract a respectable number of new riders. But there are still going to be a lot of people who are either a) not going to be persuaded because your campaign is not as neat and shiny and celebrity and tit laden as a multi-billion dollar corporations campaign b) think your advertising campaign is stupid or have not been persuaded enough by your adverts c) think all advertising is bunk and will simply go out and find out the facts for themselves and make a decision not based on ads, but on thoughful research and reflection.

I cant see car adverts being banned. It is not like smoking or drinking were there are very well defined, easily seen consequences. Show how many kids a drunk driver killed, or a child with asthma from second hand smoke and its little surprise that people pushed for the idea of limiting advertising on these two products. But cars. Thats a whole different story. Cars are rarely viewed or portrayed in a negative light. And in the cases where a negative stigma has been attached to them, it is usually through the driver, clearing the actual machine of any wrong doing. The car is a sacred cow, a religion (or cult depending on your point of view). It does have a lot of good uses and has benefits to society, but there are aspects of the myth and culture of the automobile that make it an almost impossible target for advertising bans.

And nor do I think they should be banned. In fact there are very few cases where I think advertising should be limited or outright banned (child advertising is one of those instances but that is an entirely different discussion). Yes there are very negative side effects associated with the car but if that is the message that one wants to send out to people, it is best done side by side with the advertising and culprit in question. And there is far from just one solution and method of attack. Transit can still make gains by fighting fire with fire and working toward creating smart, advertising campaigns to attract riders. Activism and protest are another good tool too use. And also education, which is among the most important. If more youth are taught how to be critical of media, how to dissect a commercial and understand the methods the company is using to persuade you too buy their product, how to seperate factual information from false promises and exaggerations, then there is less need to regulate the airwaves as way of protecting the 'fragile, impressionable' population.

And at the end of the day, Im not worried about advertising. Turn off your TV or at least stop consuming commercial media sources and you find that the constant bombardment rapidly disappears. Marketing and advertising largely responds to the shape of society as it exists at the momment. When most every city and town built today is a car dependant suburb, who is really all that surprised by the number of car commericals? Its a natural response for these companies. What worries me are the policies that shape society that lead to this condition in the first place. A billion dollar expressway will do far more to promote car culture than a billion dollar advertising campaign ever could. Likewise, a billion dollar well invested in public transit, education, and urbanism will do far more at promoting sustainable cities and living than the most lavish TTC publicity ever could.
 
Public transit, bicycles, etc. have their place, but are uselss for some types of trips. Cars also have their place.

You just provided yourself with an answer. Moving 2 tonnes of steel just to move 75 kg upto a few kilometres is not very efficent in economic terms. The car option should not always be at the forefront.
 

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