Throw away buildings - CBC

[cdr108]

i was told never to buy new construction at the peak of a construction boom b/c they're in a hurry to slap things together to make teh most $$$ / concerned being stuck with product if the economy suddenly changes, lack of qualified trades, etc.

over the past decade, maybe stuff pre-2005 might be better built than stuff now.

similar for the 1980s boom ... beware post-1988 construction.

 

[Eug]

i was told never to buy new construction at the peak of a construction boom b/c they're in a hurry to slap things together to make teh most $$$ / concerned being stuck with product if the economy suddenly changes, lack of qualified trades, etc.

over the past decade, maybe stuff pre-2005 might be better built than stuff now.

similar for the 1980s boom ... beware post-1988 construction.

Quite frankly, I think that's pretty useless advice. Construction quality is going to vary regardless. Each building's construction quality has to be judged individually, or at least based on the reputation of the specific builder.

To say a building is better just because it was built in 2004 rather than 2011 is at best foolish.

 

[AKS]

Quite frankly, I think that's pretty useless advice. Construction quality is going to vary regardless. Each building's construction quality has to be judged individually, or at least based on the reputation of the specific builder.

To say a building is better just because it was built in 2004 rather than 2011 is at best foolish.

I think CDR does have somewhat of a point. If there's not enough qualified/good tradesman, they will hire inexperienced people. That will help save on costs probably (more earnings) but also speed things up. Otherwise you end up like, I think it's Langston hotel or something? It took years to build and it was only a few stories. They really seem to spend a lot of time and put quality into it albeit it took years to build. If you're on a tight schedule, you'll want any tradesmen to help build on time either skilled or unskilled.

 

[Josef]

http://marinadelreylawsuits.blogspot.com/

 

[wopchop]

It is the building authorities who set the bar, they have lowered the minimum standard in Toronto.
In the past, cinder block or poured concrete walls were required to separate dwelling spaces in multi unit buildings. This standard was lowered to permit two layers of type x drywall to suffice. This helps the developer, since it's cheaper, and hurts the purchaser.

Why would you say that? You have not adequately explained why it is superior to have dwelling units separated by block or concrete, as opposed to stick frame + drywall.

 

[doug]

You have not adequately explained why it is superior to have dwelling units separated by block or concrete, as opposed to stick frame + drywall.

I had (apparently falsly) assumed that most people here had the common sense to understand that a solid concrete wall, or cinder block construction would provide more sound isolation then two layers of drywall on a flexible frame.

If you know better, please explain.

 

[wopchop]

I had (apparently falsly) assumed that most people here had the common sense to understand that a solid concrete wall, or cinder block construction would provide more sound isolation then two layers of drywall on a flexible frame.

If you know better, please explain.

That's not always true, actually. It's the size of the air gap that really matters, and not the mass of the wall itself.

For example; Wall A composed of (drywall+furring+concrete block+furring+drywall) will certainly perform better than Wall B (drywall + metal stud + drywall) but it will not perform better than Wall C (Drywall + metal stud + air gap + metal stud + drywall). This is because that while Wall A does contain air gaps, the air gaps are small and the system is still rigidly connected, so it will continue to underperform in comparison to Wall C. This is fact.

The furring in Wall A simply doesn't provide enough of an air gap to be truly effective as a sound isolator. Certainly not good value for the money, considering the added cost of concrete block walls. Wall C represents the lowest mass wall with a higher level of sound isolation. It's much cheaper than Wall A, but more expensive than Wall B.

A better change would be to mandate double-stud construction for unit partitions, as opposed to mandating concrete block walls. The latter is a big loss for the customer and the builder.

 

[doug]

It's the size of the air gap that really matters, and not the mass of the wall itself.

Air gaps reduce high frequency transmission, massive walls reduce low frequency transmission. The mass does have a valuable effect.

A better change would be to mandate double-stud construction for unit partitions, as opposed to mandating concrete block walls

They've eliminated the mandate for concrete block or poured walls, they have not mandated double stud construction. How is the consumer better off now?

 

[wopchop]

I agree with you. The mass has a valuable effect, but the type of wall that you would see built (concrete block + furring + drywall) is not likely to be better than a double stud wall. Certainly not from a value for your money perspective.

They've eliminated the mandate for concrete block or poured walls, they have not mandated double stud construction. How is the consumer better off now?

Well, that depends on the metric, doesn't it? Economically, the customer is certainly much, much better off. In regards to sound isolation, they're not. I do somewhat agree with you, though. I think that the standards should change, but I don't agree that mass walls are necessary at all. In fact, I think they would be a big loss to the customer. I'd rather see the standard move to double stud partitions. They would provide effective sound isolation at a realistic price.

 

[doug]

I'd rather see the standard move to double stud partitions. They would provide effective sound isolation at a realistic price.

Agreed, but the city won't do this. So, consumers lose, cheapest is not always the best.

 

[wopchop]

Agreed, but the city won't do this. So, consumers lose, cheapest is not always the best.

The onus and the ability to make that change rests with the framers of the OBC, not the City of Toronto.

We'll see what happens. The long awaited next version of the Code is rumoured to contain significant changes to Part 3. It's possible that this might be among them. Who knows?

 

[doug]

OK, so the province needs to change the code back to something better, like we had over a decade ago.

I haven't noticed any reduction in condo prices due to this cheaper form of construction, so who won?

 

[hawc]

I've experienced both.

I lived in a reclaimed loft where the units were just separated by drywall + metal stud + drywall and I could not believe that's all that was coming between me and my neighbours. You could hear people talking on the other side all the time (kind of like how the adults in Charlie Brown cartoons talk) and I thought that it was insane that if I wanted to I could basically kick through the wall and be in my neighbours unit.

Never, ever, ever again will I do that.

Now I'm in a condo with drywall+furring+concrete+furring+drywall and it's absolutely silent. Never heard my neighbours once. Even if they're loud in the halls, as soon as they go into their apartment - silence. It's a beautiful thing.

Allowing the minium standard to be drywall + metal stud + drywall between units is crazy. You shouldn't be able to lean on you wall and feel it bend. I can't believe that's allowed.

 

[wopchop]

I haven't noticed any reduction in condo prices due to this cheaper form of construction, so who won?

Too broad of a statement. Land values have risen. What about inflation? Average unit size? Tons of different variables.

But I can tell you right now that having partition walls made of concrete block would certainly raise current condo prices. Most definitely.

 

[doug]

But I can tell you right now that having partition walls made of concrete block would certainly raise current condo prices.

You mean, like they were 10 to 15 years ago.

Average unit size?

This is getting a little funny, average unit size is about a third what it was 10 years ago, for the same or much higher price.