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The province of Toronto?

MTown said:
I agree entirely. Turning Canada's major cities into provinces would be a disservice to the federation. Transferring proper amounts to them so they can deal with infrastructure properly and/or transferring some income-generation to them is what needs to be done.....like, 40 years ago.
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Except the transfer are based entirely on political expediency. That's reality. Even receeding the borders of Ontario back to the historical Upper Canada would have quite they psychological impact. Ontario would then be far more urban in geography and the influence of the 416 would grow (by dropping 800 000 northern Ontarians).

Setting Toronto aside, what does Kapuskasing or Sudbury have in common with London or Kingston anyway?
 
kEiThZ said:
Except the transfer are based entirely on political expediency. That's reality. Even receeding the borders of Ontario back to the historical Upper Canada would have quite they psychological impact. Ontario would then be far more urban in geography and the influence of the 416 would grow (by dropping 800 000 northern Ontarians).

Setting Toronto aside, what does Kapuskasing or Sudbury have in common with London or Kingston anyway?
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The influence of Northern Ontario is limited in any case given the number of seats, relative to rural Southern Ontario. Separation is ultimately the wrong solution for the problem at hand (and there are fundamental issues of fairness and responsibility, if not constitutionality).

What really should happen is establishing a proper GTA/Golden Horseshoe level of government and having certain powers (taxation, intra-regional transportation, planning) devolved to it. Health, Education, Environment and the rest should stay with the province proper. Housing and Social Services should be joint responsibility.

AoD
 
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TheTigerMaster said:
My point is that if Toronto had access to more revenue tools, the City wouldn't have to crawl cap in hand to superior levels of government every time the City wanted to spend a few dollars.
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The city was given a host of revenue tools about eight years ago. The fact that the city decided to actually use a few of them (i.e., VRT, LTT, etc.) led us directly to a political climate that gave to the rise of Rob Ford (and his ilk). We're now in kind of a 'Catch 22' regarding those tools.
 
For the most part, "revenue tools" are simply taxes that would make Toronto less competitive with 905 municipalities, putting us at a disadvantage when it comes to attractive jobs and development. What we really need is for the province to take back responsibility for social services such as housing and public health that can be used by all Ontarians (who choose to move here) but are located disproportionately in Toronto.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
I'm assuming you're referring to my comment that, "The Province can do essentially whatever it likes to municipalities (within the law) with the stroke of a pen. There's absolutely no reason for the Province to wield this kind of power over our larger municipalities. "

My answer: absolutely nobody. Our largest cities are large enough to govern themselves without interference from superior levels of government. There is no reason for the Province to be omnipotent within these municipalities. The relationships between municipalities and provinces should be akin to that of the federal government and the provinces (in terms of how the powers of the superior level of government over subordinate governments are severely and strictly limited).


Ideally the Province should pass a bill that would limit the power of the Province over larger municipalities. This bill would have quasi-constitutional status within the Province, similar to the Bill of Rights.
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While this sounds like a good thing to do, it's still the province governing the city by being hands off and is something that they could remove/adjust again (to modify municipal boundaries in 75 years or form a GTA wide government if nothing else).

That said, I don't think it'll matter in 30 years. The GTA and GTA dependent satellite cities will have a large majority of the provinces population. Toronto is achieving independence from Ontario's control by taking over Queens Park. Any problems caused by Queen's Park are ultimately problems that the GTA is creating itself.
 
AlvinofDiaspar said:
What really should happen is establishing a proper GTA/Golden Horseshoe level of government and having certain powers (taxation, intra-regional transportation, planning) devolved to it. Health, Education, Environment and the rest should stay with the province proper. Housing and Social Services should be joint responsibility.
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It doesn't seem totally practical to make a level of government primarily for transit/planning. Especially just intra-regional transit. The budget would be so small nobody would take elections for its legislature seriously.

If the main point of this government would be transit, then why not simply make a proper regional transit body? There are probably dozens of institutional structures which could work. I'd imagine a new CrownCorp jointly owned by QueensPark and the municipalities. Have the municipal and Provincial stake holders agree to a specific funding, operating and construction plan every few years.

It's not uncommon elsewhere to have intragovernmental cooperation on transit. In most of the German speaking world you have municipal transit cooperating with federal S-bahn systems. In Tokyo JapanRail is a major part of the transit mix. So on and so forth.
 
It's worth pointing out that the City of Toronto is still limited to random "fees" like the VRT/LTT and, of course, the property tax. Many US cities are able to levy value-added and income taxes - it would assist with the fiscal situation to a great extent if Ontario municipalities could do the same, even if mainly to shift the tax burden from property to income. It would be a progressive choice and probably afford better more sustainable funding.
 
JGHali said:
It's worth pointing out that the City of Toronto is still limited to random "fees" like the VRT/LTT and, of course, the property tax. Many US cities are able to levy value-added and income taxes - it would assist with the fiscal situation to a great extent if Ontario municipalities could do the same, even if mainly to shift the tax burden from property to income. It would be a progressive choice and probably afford better more sustainable funding.
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While I take exception to the categorization of those two measures as "random fees"...they are taxes and, in the case of LTT, just a sales tax on the purchase of real estate.....that aside there were other measures that were granted to the city of Toronto (measures that no other municipality has) to recognize its uniqueness. In fact the actual name of the bill that led to the revised City of Toronto Act was Stronger City of Toronto for a Stronger Ontario Act, 2005.

The fact that Toronto has just failed/refused to enact the other measures available to it tells me that they as a city or an electorate are not really looking for new revenue sources to solve their "problems" via taxing their own citizens or activities...the only revenues they are interested in is direct investment via transfers from the upper levels of government.

The other measures they have the power to implement are....sales taxes on alcohol, tobacco products and entrance into entertainment venues.....and taxes on parking, road pricing and billboards.
 
It's human nature to resist paying more, or at least to not want to pay more... and most of us tend to feel we're paying too much to start with (whether this is reality or not). The issue is populist governments pandering to these sentiments. Governments are supposed to show a little more responsibility than this, they are supposed to 'know better' in other words. The situation we are in today (decrepit public realm, inadequate infrastructure etc) is due to successive irresponsible governments who have played politics with their stewardship. It takes a strong leader/leadership to come out and say what needs to happen, even if it's unpopular. If the electorate punishes them for this then what can you say, we deserve what we get!
 
Johnny Au said:
With Toronto becoming its own province, it would be able to control its own destiny better. However, Ontario would need to find a new capital.
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Would it? Though Kingston was removed from Frontenac County, the Frontenac County seat remains in Kingston. The same situation exists with London being the seat of Middlesex County, which it is no longer part of.
 
nfitz said:
Would it? Though Kingston was removed from Frontenac County, the Frontenac County seat remains in Kingston. The same situation exists with London being the seat of Middlesex County, which it is no longer part of.
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I initially thought the same thing as Johnny regarding a new capital for Ontario, but I think Toronto could remain the capital (and Queen's Park could remain the Ontario legislature). It might just mean placing the provincial capital inside a
'provincial capital region' - administratively if not actually physically.
 
Separating Toronto from its greater Toronto region would be asinine, and what would be left really? What is needed is a better funding model for the city.
 
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