The Hypocrisy of the International Community, Re: Russia

[Filip]

Yeah, read some history for yourself. Your wish to decorate Stalin with some heroic status comes at the neglect that he brought about the imprisonment and murder of tens of millions of Russians and millions of Ukranians.

Here's some more history you should read: the reasons for World War One and World War Two were quite different.

And some more history: prove that history repeats itself exactly.

It's always fascinating when someone promotes genocide to assuage his own paranoia. You'll just have to go on feeling sad.

When did I decorate Stalin? Without Russia's offensive against Germany, Hitler could have very well won WWII, and God knows what kind of world we'd be living in. I know very well what he did to Russians and Ukrainians, but he was not Russian, he was a Georgian.

History repeats itself, that is one of the truisms of the world. Maybe you should brush up on some history going back to classical times to get a full grasp of it.

 

[afransen]

I don't think any country came out entirely clean after WWII. What the Allies did to Dresden was horrific, though something we conveniently forget when we cast ourselves (North Americans) as the good guys. That's entirely leaving aside Hiroshima/Nagasaki, which has also been argued to death.

 

[kEiThZ]

I don't think any country came out entirely clean after WWII. What the Allies did to Dresden was horrific, though something we conveniently forget when we cast ourselves (North Americans) as the good guys. That's entirely leaving aside Hiroshima/Nagasaki, which has also been argued to death.

What Hitler did to Coventry first was equally appalling. Let's set aside the brow beating. He was a horrific adversary who sought to conduct total war on the rest of Europe. We did everything in our power to get rid of him.

The Russians today are not Nazi Germany. Putin and gang are tyrannical to be sure but they are best left to their own devices. Their declining population, severe social problems, over-reliance on fossil fuels, etc. will make them a power of declining relevance. In 50 years, Russia will be a lot less important than today.....as soon as we kick our fossil fuels addiction to the curb.

 

[afransen]

What Hitler did to Coventry first was equally appalling. Let's set aside the brow beating. He was a horrific adversary who sought to conduct total war on the rest of Europe. We did everything in our power to get rid of him.

That's not really the point. Everyone remembers what the Nazis did. Far too many forget the sins the Allies committed.

 

[kEiThZ]

That's not really the point. Everyone remembers what the Nazis did. Far too many forget the sins the Allies committed.

It was the time period of "all's fair in war." In an environment of total war nobody wins. But on balance, yes we forgive the sins of the allies. Because they didnt have Hitler as a leader and they werent bent on annihilating other races. I don't believe the allies have anything to apologize for. Immediately after winning, North America opened the flood gates to immigration, and the Marshall plan rebuilt Europe to an economic capacity that was greater than pre-war. What country has ever in its history rebuilt its vanquished adversary to be its own economic rival. This is where critics of the US are wrong.

On the other side, we saw the Russians methodically de-industrialize East Germany for revenge. And the East Germans are still trying to catch up now....the sins of the Allies were mostly committed by one rather shity ally...Russia.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

It was the time period of "all's fair in war." In an environment of total war nobody wins. But on balance, yes we forgive the sins of the allies. Because they didnt have Hitler as a leader and they werent bent on annihilating other races. I don't believe the allies have anything to apologize for. Immediately after winning, North America opened the flood gates to immigration, and the Marshall plan rebuilt Europe to an economic capacity that was greater than pre-war. What country has ever in its history rebuilt its vanquished adversary to be its own economic rival. This is where critics of the US are wrong.

On the other side, we saw the Russians methodically de-industrialize East Germany for revenge. And the East Germans are still trying to catch up now....the sins of the Allies were mostly committed by one rather shity ally...Russia.

japanese americans 1942

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4F1Lq1uFcAE

it's really scary. in war, you happen to look like the enemy, they think you are the enemy. all logic and rationality breaks down.

 

[BobBob]

Back to the topic at hand, Chris Hitchens wrote about the comparison between S.Ossetia and Kosovo, and he makes lots of good points: http://www.slate.com/id/2197704/

 

[Hydrogen]

When did I decorate Stalin? Without Russia's offensive against Germany, Hitler could have very well won WWII, and God knows what kind of world we'd be living in. I know very well what he did to Russians and Ukrainians, but he was not Russian, he was a Georgian.

History repeats itself, that is one of the truisms of the world. Maybe you should brush up on some history going back to classical times to get a full grasp of it.

Then I guess your "sipping tea" comment is related to Stalin having taken over England? Estimates for the deaths he caused in his own country range up to 20 million. And so what about Stalin being born in Georgia. Georgia was part of the Soviet Union. Hitler was born in Austria; does that make any difference? It would appear that you appear to deeply affected by local ethnic identities and divisions.

Here is a bit of history for you that you are oblivious to. The Manhattan project was developing nuclear weapons not to be used on Japan, but on Germany. So if you want to play a game of what if, German manufacturing districts, underground manufacturing facilities, oil refineries, other strategic targets and the seat of government would eventually have been completely destroyed using a relatively small numbers of aircraft.

As for Stalin, he would have done nothing had the Soviet Union not been invaded. Remember, he signed onto the partitioning of Poland along with Germany, and eventually had the officers of the Polish military murdered.

Stalin became an ally out of convenience, as he was hardly trusted by either Roosevelt or Churchill. And Stalin hardly trusted his fellow leaders. His military was supplied with millions of tons of supplies by Western allies, and benefitted from a cold winter and poor German supply lines. After the war was over, he opted not to withdraw from most of the nations that his military occupied, helping to bring about the start of the Cold War.

History repeats itself, that is one of the truisms of the world. Maybe you should brush up on some history going back to classical times to get a full grasp of it.

Provide just one accurate example of such repetition.

 

[Filip]

Back to the topic at hand, Chris Hitchens wrote about the comparison between S.Ossetia and Kosovo, and he makes lots of good points: http://www.slate.com/id/2197704/

He also makes some constitutional mistakes. Kosovo was legally part of Serbia, who does this man think he's kidding, westerners who don't read multiple sources? Under the Yugoslav constitution, drafted in 1976, in order to appease Croat seperatists and weaken the Serbian control over Yugoslavia, Serbia was split in three autonomous regions: Vojvodina, Central Serbia and Kosovo. There is nothing vaguely legal about this move, and Milosevic, once having gained power, revoked the autonomy as fixing a wrongdoing upon the Serbian people.

 

[Filip]

Then I guess your "sipping tea" comment is related to Stalin having taken over England? Estimates for the deaths he caused in his own country range up to 20 million. And so what about Stalin being born in Georgia. Georgia was part of the Soviet Union. Hitler was born in Austria; does that make any difference? It would appear that you appear to deeply affected by local ethnic identities and divisions.

Here is a bit of history for you that you are oblivious to. The Manhattan project was developing nuclear weapons not to be used on Japan, but on Germany. So if you want to play a game of what if, German manufacturing districts, underground manufacturing facilities, oil refineries, other strategic targets and the seat of government would eventually have been completely destroyed using a relatively small numbers of aircraft.

As for Stalin, he would have done nothing had the Soviet Union not been invaded. Remember, he signed onto the partitioning of Poland along with Germany, and eventually had the officers of the Polish military murdered.

Stalin became an ally out of convenience, as he was hardly trusted by either Roosevelt or Churchill. And Stalin hardly trusted his fellow leaders. His military was supplied with millions of tons of supplies by Western allies, and benefitted from a cold winter and poor German supply lines. After the war was over, he opted not to withdraw from most of the nations that his military occupied, helping to bring about the start of the Cold War.





Provide just one accurate example of such repetition.

Massive empires always collapse? Which is why I'm willing to bet the United States have a few decades left in them before they kick the bucket and the world is free.

Many leaders had pacts with Hitler before he turned against them, the allies did, Yugoslavia did, etc... The Soviet Union was just trying to protect its intersts, that is, until Hitler decided that Slavs were untermenschen (I'll need to brush up on my German but I think that's the term) and proceded to try and turn the Slavic world into Germany's breadbasket.

And for the record, for people here crying about the allies' crimes, and the bombing of Dresden (which I'm sorry, but I can't feel the slightest sadness, even though beauties were destroyed). Hitler's army flattened: Warsaw, Belgrade, Rotterdam. Bombed mercilessly: Moscow, St. Petersburg, parts of Prague, Budapest.

Then Hitler decided that one German life was worth 10 Serbian lives. So when 4 German soldiers were killed by hooligans while patrolling Serbian towns, Hitler ordered his men to kill 40 boys from a local high school where my mother grew up. She said even through her childhood, the mothers of the murdered kids would cry and lament.. Can you imagine, purposely picking high school boys and putting them out on a shooting range?

I say thank you Russia for having helped destroy Germany, and sorry Europe for having embraced Germany once again. I don't believe they can be trusted for... too long.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

I'm willing to bet the United States have a few decades left in them before they kick the bucket and the world is free.

free?

better the devil you know....

 

[Filip]

free?

better the devil you know....

Illegally bombing countries, invading sovereign territory, encouraging seperatists while playing the hypocrisy card on other territories... All under the guise of freedom and democracy... I bet classic Athenians are rolling in their graves.

The United States have become an immoral beacon of corporate run corruption. Think of it as Rome under Calligula, slowly - collapsing from copious decadence.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

Illegally bombing countries, invading sovereign territory, encouraging seperatists while playing the hypocrisy card on other territories... All under the guise of freedom and democracy... I bet classic Athenians are rolling in their graves.

The United States have become an immoral beacon of corporate run corruption. Think of it as Rome under Calligula, slowly - collapsing from copious decadence.

it could be worse but by the same token, it can also be better. if most americans stopped preferring faith over skepticism, things could get better. politicians wouldn't be able to bullshit the populace and get away with soo much destruction at home and abroad if the wall of separation between church and state was respected. americans have become soo enchanted by the religious beliefs of their politicians that they don't seem to care about anything else.

"you're a christian, you fuck your own wife and go to church? get the fuck in the whitehouse, you're president! it don't matter if you're retarded. jesus will tell you what to do"

 

[Filip]

it could be worse but by the same token, it can also be better. if most americans stopped preferring faith over skepticism, things could get better. politicians wouldn't be able to bullshit the populace and get away with soo much destruction at home and abroad if the wall of separation between church and state was respected. americans have become soo enchanted by the religious beliefs of their politicians that they don't seem to care about anything else.

"you're a christian, you fuck your own wife and go to church? get the fuck in the whitehouse, you're president! it don't matter if you're retarded. jesus will tell you what to do"

There was a time America stood for something, but ever since the death of JFK - America has been meddling in foreign affairs, picking wars with countries that have NOTHING to do with them and extorting states economically to fulfill their dirty work.
Good news that their economy is finally going to the shitter, and their trillions of dollars in debt will further weaken their it. Give it a few decades and America will not collapse like Rome from foreign invasions, but by itself, as a huge implosion that will ripple throughout the world.

 

[ganjavih]

I'm no fan of US foreign policy, but I shudder at the thought of the decline of the US coinciding with the rise of China into superpowerdom (is there such as word?).