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The Hypocrisy of the International Community, Re: Russia

Of course they are. You said that in your own post.

I didn't clarify. I was merely trying to point out that while the systems weren't aimed at Russia specifically in past (limited to 10 interceptors, fixed radar sites, Russians to be authorized inspections, etc.), it will most certainly include Russia as a threat now. And co-operation with Russia is probably out of the picture now. While there could be some boost phase intercepts of Russian ballistic missiles, it is highly unlikely that Russia could be prevented from conducting a nuclear strike on any target in Europe.

Obviously these installations on the Russian border are designed to intercept Russian missiles, thereby reducing their deterrent. While the reliability of some of their missiles has certainly declined, the Russians still maintain a substantial deterrent, especially with the new Topol-M missiles and the new sub class coming on line.

Ten interceptors do not pose a credible threat to the Russian deterrent, particularly since Russia has a nuclear triad (sea, air and land). The system was aimed directly at Iran. The readiness of the interceptors was even conditional on Iran's deployment of a nuclear capability. The Europeans are even looking to build a non-US system for the same reason.

I think the Russians have severely miscalculated. The just drove all of Eastern Europe into the loving (and aid paying) arms of Uncle Sam.
 
While the reliability of some of their missiles has certainly declined, the Russians still maintain a substantial deterrent, especially with the new Topol-M missiles and the new sub class coming on line.

Which is one reason why there continues to be active development of anti-missile technology. This system is defensive while building more delivery systems is, in a very real sense, offensive.
 
I didn't clarify. I was merely trying to point out that while the systems weren't aimed at Russia specifically in past (limited to 10 interceptors, fixed radar sites, Russians to be authorized inspections, etc.), it will most certainly include Russia as a threat now. And co-operation with Russia is probably out of the picture now. While there could be some boost phase intercepts of Russian ballistic missiles, it is highly unlikely that Russia could be prevented from conducting a nuclear strike on any target in Europe.

I think that it's pretty clear that Russia is also being targeted by a missile defence system in Poland. The scariest thing is that if, god forbid, the shit hits the fan and Russia tries to mount a limited missile attack on, say, Western Europe, they'll be forced to escalate right away. No single warhead strike, because the risk of interception would be too high. They'll have to launch at least a dozen to ensure that one gets through. That was one of the major arguments against Star Wars back in the day. MAD kept us safe for five decades. Is it really worth it to throw it away? Especially for such a leaky, limited, and dubiously effective system. To me, it just seems like poking the Russians (and Chinese) in the eye for no reason. The Chinese situation is more alarming. They've maintained a very limited deterrent for the last four decades. With these interceptors, they'll have to dramatically increase their number of ICBMs from their current ~25 in order to ensure an effective deterrent.

As for the Iranians, this multibillion dollar system makes no sense. If we were able to deter the Soviet Union and the Chinese for decades, why couldn't we do the same with far-more-overwhelming superiority over whatever system Iran fields? And if they really do go insane and try to attack a Western city, it's not going to be with missiles. They'll just smuggle one in, getting around any interceptors and giving them plausible deniability.

Which is one reason why there continues to be active development of anti-missile technology. This system is defensive while building more delivery systems is, in a very real sense, offensive.

Looking at it simplistically, yes, but in fact Russia has been retiring far more weapons than it is building. It's going for a more survivable, but much smaller deterrent. These new weapons are simply replacing (and not 1-for-1) extremely unreliable Cold War era systems.

Remember that Gorbachev repeatedly offered to negotiate the elimination of all nuclear weapons (or most weapons--whatever the Americans preferred), a suggestion that the Americans repeatedly turned down. It's in Reagan's diaries, actually, that he found the idea very appealing. Unfortunately, his advisors, including Dick Cheney, shot the idea down quite quickly.
 
I think that it's pretty clear that Russia is also being targeted by a missile defence system in Poland. The scariest thing is that if, god forbid, the shit hits the fan and Russia tries to mount a limited missile attack on, say, Western Europe, they'll be forced to escalate right away. No single warhead strike, because the risk of interception would be too high. They'll have to launch at least a dozen to ensure that one gets through.

The very high likelihood would be that any launch of nuclear warheads would result in a very rapid escalation. It would follow the "use it or lose it" manner of thinking as launch sites or potential launch sites would be targeted either strategically or tactically. The longer your nuclear weapons stay unfired the greater the likelihood they will be destroyed in a retaliative strike.


Remember that Gorbachev repeatedly offered to negotiate the elimination of all nuclear weapons

Remember that Gorbachev was removed from office in a coup and never reacquired the position or influence he had before. No doubt Gorbachev would have been turfed earlier had he fully convinced Reagan to do such a thing. The Soviets had their fair share of warmongers, too.
 
Ten interceptors do not pose a credible threat to the Russian deterrent, particularly since Russia has a nuclear triad (sea, air and land).....I think the Russians have severely miscalculated. The just drove all of Eastern Europe into the loving (and aid paying) arms of Uncle Sam.
Well said. We must also remember that this is a great flag waving op for the Americans and Poles. It doesn't matter if the anti-missile system is large or small, only that it is there, and staffed by America soldiers. If even the entire US military presence in Poland was small frigate, any Russian attack on Poland will be met with crushing American firepower. NATO's protection of Poland is not the same empty promise from Britain/France in 1939.

I think sometimes we do not fully appreciate the massively crushing force of the US military relative to the rest of the world. As an force of occupation or of Vietnam-like slogging they're not the best, but in offensive capability no one can touch the US. The US spends nearly as much money on its military as every other country on earth combined. It doesn't matter how many tanks the Russians have when a single squadron of stealth aircraft can destroy them and their fuel train en masse. It doesn't matter how many MiGs or Suikoi's you have when a single squadron of interlinked F-22s can kill them with impunity. It doesn't matter how many submarines the Russian have, when a single US Virginia class SSN can kill Russian subs all day and remain unseen. The Chinese military may have more soldiers, and the Russians more vodka and AKs, but the world has never seen a more powerful military force than that of America today.

If Russia continues to annoy and threaten its neighbours, they will strengthen NATO and America's resolve. Putin just can't the fact that the world doesn't take Russia seriously. Meanwhile, almost every other country in Europe is busily developing and building successful economies and prosperity for their people. Russia has just scuppered their chances of joining the EU for at least a generation.
 

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Who are you kidding, seriously?

Russia has not even the slightest urge to join the EU, that would against everything Russians want.
To those naysayers who think Russia can't pose a serious threat, just wait. Russia didn't completely collapse, do you think that anyone would be stupid enough to let the army fall into ruin? What, western propaganda analysts know of Russia's might? LOL have their arsenal is secret, half their projects are secret... Russia is like the US, why show the world what punch you have?

With Russia and China rising to become new superpowers, the US hegemony will finally collapse and peace can reign at least where I'm from.
 
http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11990200

Great article on the Europeans and their rush to embrace BMD.

I think that it's pretty clear that Russia is also being targeted by a missile defence system in Poland. The scariest thing is that if, god forbid, the shit hits the fan and Russia tries to mount a limited missile attack on, say, Western Europe, they'll be forced to escalate right away. No single warhead strike, because the risk of interception would be too high. They'll have to launch at least a dozen to ensure that one gets through. That was one of the major arguments against Star Wars back in the day. MAD kept us safe for five decades. Is it really worth it to throw it away? Especially for such a leaky, limited, and dubiously effective system. To me, it just seems like poking the Russians (and Chinese) in the eye for no reason. The Chinese situation is more alarming. They've maintained a very limited deterrent for the last four decades. With these interceptors, they'll have to dramatically increase their number of ICBMs from their current ~25 in order to ensure an effective deterrent.

Come now, the likelihood of nuclear war on the continent is pretty slim, particularly given how close Poland and the Czech republic are to Russia itself.

I agree that MAD kept us safe for decades. However, Europe and the US aren't really worried about responsible major powers like Russia or China setting off a nuclear dispute. Iran on the other hand, sends out maps with Italy its missile range ring and makes public pronouncements on wiping Israel off the map.

I am skeptical about ABM at its current stage. But as an aerospace engineer, I will tell you that it is within the realm of possibility that the technology can be developed and improved to provide an effective defence. Air to Air missiles already do the bullet-on-bullet thing at closure rates, sometimes exceed Mach 6. Given enough time and resources, I have no doubt an effective system can be developed. And I am pretty sure, that's what scares the Russians. Everybody knows, with tech, its always version 2 that matters.

There is a compromise solution. Both sides can agree to a limited deployment of ABMs in a defined area. The template for this could be the Conventional Forces in Europe Treaty or even the SALT series of treaties. This would address European and US concerns and assure Russia that their deterrent is not being eroded.


China is an altogether different story. North East Asia is definitely one of the world's flashpoints. We have the Koreans, the Japanese and the Chinese, who all think they are the superior race and feel no compulsion on hiding that attitude from their neighbours. Incidentally, it is US involvement that keeps the region from exploding. Japan and South Korea have not developed nuclear weapons and in turn have come under the American nuclear umbrella. As such China sees no need to increase the size of its deterrent. That balance might upset a little if the US deploys BMD in NE Asia. However, when Chinese ICBMs can incinerate major cities in the CONUS, its highly unlikely that China will win the argument that its deterrent is being significantly eroded.

As for the Iranians, this multibillion dollar system makes no sense. If we were able to deter the Soviet Union and the Chinese for decades, why couldn't we do the same with far-more-overwhelming superiority over whatever system Iran fields? And if they really do go insane and try to attack a Western city, it's not going to be with missiles. They'll just smuggle one in, getting around any interceptors and giving them plausible deniability.

Asked and answered. It's Iranian bluster driving this one. As long as they keep claiming that they can put satellites in space, and hint at their desire to "fix" the middle east, and get the "Shia bomb" they will remain the target of European and American military planners.

I still find it amusing that the Europeans who have never seen eye-to-eye with the US efforts on BMD, are suddenly tripping over themselves to get their own program in place now that Iran is progressing towards better capabilites. But I guess, when the guns pointed at you, things look quite different.

Remember that Gorbachev repeatedly offered to negotiate the elimination of all nuclear weapons (or most weapons--whatever the Americans preferred), a suggestion that the Americans repeatedly turned down. It's in Reagan's diaries, actually, that he found the idea very appealing. Unfortunately, his advisors, including Dick Cheney, shot the idea down quite quickly.

It's highly unlikely that would have worked. Remember, NATO had a first use policy, to use nukes to destroy the Soviet armoured thrust that would try and split the continent. France had the force de frappe doctrine that provided for nuking Soviet forces if they were ever in a position to threaten France. Given US committments to NATo (and by extension the defence of Europe), it would have been impossible for the US to simply give up its weapons. Indeed a number of European countries, did not develop nuclear weapons on the express guarantee that the US nuclear umbrella would keep Europe safe. Indeed NATO was founded on this principle. If the US gave up its nukes, it would have been all but guaranteed that a number of European countries would have pursued their own nuclear weapons programs.
 
To those naysayers who think Russia can't pose a serious threat, just wait. Russia didn't completely collapse, do you think that anyone would be stupid enough to let the army fall into ruin?
The Russians are not stupid, but they have let their entire military fall into ruin.
What, western propaganda analysts know of Russia's might? LOL have their arsenal is secret, half their projects are secret... Russia is like the US, why show the world what punch you have?
Whatever lad, whatever. Russia is impotent, a shell of what it once was, with rampant alcoholism, corruption and idleness perverting its once credible military.
With Russia and China rising to become new superpowers,
Russia a superpower? Rubbish. Russia's population is dying at well above its replacement rate. If it wasn't for Russian oil, the world wouldn't care about Russia at all. Russia's nominal GDP is lower than Canada's for goodness sake, and Russia's per capita GDP is one the lowest in the developed work. The most embarrassing thing about Russia is how poor they are in quality of life and prosperity compared to other resource-rich developed nations.
the US hegemony will finally collapse and peace can reign at least where I'm from.
From where I stand the world is at peace. Russia is collapsing from within, and its demise will be its own fault. It's got the resources and riches to make itself a great country, but instead it's the POS of Eurasia.
 
Keep basing your facts from CNN, not everything is as black and white as you make it to be.


Russia is on its way up, not because of oil, but rampant foreign investments... A large chunk of Eastern Europe's (that includes Poland, Czech R, Romania, Serbia, etc) are owned by Russian firms. I think most of you are due for a strong wake up call after Russia further stretches its arms over the old Soviet Union.

Think of it this way. What was Russia a mere 10 years ago? The laughing stock of the international community, thanks to the traitor Yeltsin. Now look at what Russia has accomplished in this time, give it another 10 years and the USA will finally have another superpower to deal with, instead of wreaking chaos on Earth.
 
Think of it this way. What was Russia a mere 10 years ago? The laughing stock of the international community, thanks to the traitor Yeltsin. Now look at what Russia has accomplished in this time, give it another 10 years and the USA will finally have another superpower to deal with, instead of wreaking chaos on Earth.

if it wasn't for putin, it still would've been the laughing stock of the international community.


give it another 10 years and the USA will finally have another superpower to deal with, instead of wreaking chaos on Earth.


this is exactly why the US is trying to surround russia with their military in neighbouring states.

glad someone actually sees what's going on.
 
Exactly, I have a giant amount of respect for Putin and what he has done.

Definitely a leader with an agenda, and no bullshit involved. Medvedev being Putin's puppet is great news for Russia's future!
 
In this case I think the truth lies somewhere in between. Russia isn't impotent, nor is it rising to become a superpower again. They are pouring money into their military, but it's never been and never will be at the same level as the US. Russia wants control of it's "near abroad". They don't want to dominate the world.
 
if it wasn't for putin, it still would've been the laughing stock of the international community.





this is exactly why the US is trying to surround russia with their military in neighbouring states.

glad someone actually sees what's going on.


but the US could well be doing that because they believe that russia is in a weakened state and better to do it now that there's opportunity. could be the ole kick'em when they're down routine but substitute kicking with setting up defenses for future intervention.
 
A large chunk of Eastern Europe's (that includes Poland, Czech R, Romania, Serbia, etc) are owned by Russian firms.
Well of course. If you were a wealthy Russian or fund manager, would you want to keep your money in a tin-pot corrupt state like Russia? Of course not. You'd take your money and buy legitimate assets outside of the grasps of Moscow. Mind you, given how many of Russia's ultra rich gained their wealth, buying companies and assets outside of Russia is a great way to launder your cash.

No one cares about CNN anymore. I get my news from more trusted European outlets, including those from within Russia. They tell us that Russia is facing a massive problem with capital flight.

Russian indexes are falling more sharply than the world average
http://www.kommersant.com/p1013663/stock_markets/

Capital flight puts Russia on the ropes
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2008/03/31/cnruss131.xml

If Russia is so great, why have so many millions of its populace fled to Europe, the USA, Israel and elsewhere? According to the 2004 US Census, there are 2,652,214 Russians plus their US-born children living in the USA. When was the last time you heard of non-Russian, Canadian born citizens moving to Russia for a better life.

Russia is indeed a comical farce of a country compared to its neighbours. Like Russia, Germany, the UK, France and much else of Europe was at one time ruled by absolute monarchs and dictators. However, all except Russia have built themselves into successful economic and social states. Heck, even Spain, which was for decades the poor man of Europe is vastly beating Russia for per capital GDP.

Even your post is indicative of Russia's thinking. For Russia to be respected they think they need military force and bravado. Russia's historic enemies, Germany and France take an entirely different approach. Germany, for example, is respected for its economic strength, post-war political stability, work ethic and from a Canadian perspective its good quality cars, motorcycles, and consumer products.
 
If Russia is so great, why have so many millions of its populace fled to Europe, the USA, Israel and elsewhere? According to the 2004 US Census, there are 2,652,214 Russians plus their US-born children living in the USA. When was the last time you heard of non-Russian, Canadian born citizens moving to Russia for a better life.

life was horrible in and throughout all of the 90's because of what yeltsin and all his other buddies did. this is why so many immigrated out of russia and the newly formed countries. that's what my family did and many many others did as well. i remember when people dreamed about winning the green card lottery for a chance to come to the US. not so much anymore. less and less people are wanting to come here and the US because you essentially start over. and for what? to work 3 jobs, live in a shitty apartment, and have no close family around you?

you have to look at the bigger picture. considering the country literally bottomed out and has been rebuilding since 2000, i'd say great progress has been made in 8 years. you can't rebuild a nation with that size and population overnight. especially when you have the US trying to turn everyone against you.

Coruscanti Cognoscente has got the right idea in my opinion. The US has many many more people and facilities deployed around the world, which to me is more frightening.
 

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