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The Climate Change Thread

Since you're interested in surveys, here is the Oreskes paper you mentioned from 2004.

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/reprint/306/5702/1686.pdf

Here is the last paragraph of the paper:

Many details about climate interactions
are not well understood, and there are ample
grounds for continued research to provide
a better basis for understanding climate
dynamics. The question of what to do
about climate change is also still open. But
there is a scientific consensus on the reality
of anthropogenic climate change. Climate
scientists have repeatedly tried to make this
clear. It is time for the rest of us to listen.


I would imagine it's an even stronger consensus now.

I cited that paper earlier in this thread because I have read it. You stated it was out of date. Oreskes in an historian of science. The paper was not peer-reviewed. And it received considerable negative commentary at the time because it was not considered to be comprehensive.

Actually, you are the one who has been so concerned about literature reviews.
 
Consensus implies nothing more than "general agreement."

Well, I'm glad we agree on something. Would you prefer if the phrasing is, "there is a general agreement among climate researchers that humans affect the climate"? I'm guessing you wouldn't accept that either.

The word itself says nothing about the degree, depth, association, range and the like.

Wow, I don't know how many times now you've said this and how many times it has been addressed. I'm not talking about "degree, depth, association, range, etc.". I'm talking about a simple yes or no question. Do humans affect climate? For now, the science is saying yes.

such a stated consensus does not stand in as knowledge for what everyone in the field of climatology is thinking or accepting.

Wow again.

You have been arguing your position on the basis of the number of literature reviews, not actual evidence.

Literature reviews are evidence. They are summaries of the primary studies.

The published research has since noted that the cause of ice reduction was a cyclical event and caused by natural ocean current oscillations.

Good. I'm glad that you were able to see an example of new evidence affecting the hypothesis. And if in the future there is new evidence repudiating human activity affecting climate, I'm sure it will also be published. For now, the general agreement is that humans affect the climate.

You should then be very concerned that this political view can, and does, taint the science - which I agree is a very serious issue.

Sure, you always have to keep biases in mind, and there are likely biases on both sides. It would be difficult to come to a conclusion if there was conflicting data in the literature. However, there is such an overwhelming consensus that humans affect the climate that that's where I'll put my money.

No, there is no consensus about the depth and range.

Can I please ask you not to mention "depth" and "range" anymore. I've never asserted anything about "depth" and "range", I'm not interested, so please leave it, it only confuses the argument. I'm also not interested in arguing public policy. As I've said from the beginning, I'm interested in the yes or no question, "do humans affect the climate", so let's try to stay focused.

With respect to the survey, I only mention it because you seem to be interested in surveys. Surveys are interesting but they are not good for evaluating the state of science, literature reviews are. Again, there's not a single literature review that concludes that humans don't affect the climate.
 
I was making reference to the fact that "consensus" means nothing more than general agreement. That is the general meaning of the word consensus. What exactly is the specific quality of "general?" It's more than a little vague. What is this word consensus making reference to? Is it making reference to scientists who accept it? Is it about papers that contain the word? Is it making a reference to those who simply accept a consensus but have no knowledge how it was arrived at? Is it about actual evidence that supports the idea that is framing the consensus concerning AGW? Is it based on belief, or assumptions or the drawing of casual relationships? Is the consensus concerning AGW one that suggests only a tiny effect on climate, or is that effect of crisis proportions? Who is acting as a referee as to how the word is being employed? You might want to think the word is being employed in a very specific sense, but it isn't. No one owns the meaning of the word consensus.

I know that all you want is a yes or no answer, and that you are not interested when I point out the word is essentially gutless with respect to to any actual degree of reference (yes, I said it again); but degree is a big part of the debate taking place.

If all you want is a simple yes or no answer, then I can assume that an assertion to a supposed consensus will satisfy you and many other people, and that will be that. Sure, there are many climate scientists who can reasonably argue that humans contribute to climate change. Why not just say something clear and concise to that effect? But of those who accept a human cause to AGW, ask them to what degree human beings affect climate, and you will get a wide range of answers. That is important because understanding the relative effect would be essential when addressing the correct policies to deal with the issue. So even among those who accept human impact, understanding the degree of effect is important if something useful is to be done in terms of environmental policy.

So why resort to a vague phrasing that inevitably suggests a numbers game, and will only get used as a political means to an end? Whether you like it or not, the word "consensus" is a driving force with respect to this issue. It is a political word in that it references a supposed majority that has never been counted. The vagueness of the word serves political ends while saying nothing clearly. The global climate is complex and not reducible to a yes/no event.
 
To conclude the above, I know you don't want to hear about depth or range anymore. Little or lot is of no concern. You are only interested in yes or no.

Earlier in this thread you claimed that even though you know "diddly squat" about climatology (post #16), you stated knowledge that the current consensus among climate researchers (post #87) is one that indicates that human activity causes climate change. You also stated to know that the "scientific community as a whole believes" that human activity causes climate change, and that "scientists as a whole believe it" as well (post #24). Also on the basis of your self-stated lack of expertise you claim that a "vast majority of the scientific literature" illustrates that human beings cause climate change (post #51). In fact, you believe that there is such an "overwhelming consensus" that humans affect the climate that that's where you would place your money (post #92). On the basis of claiming to know what the opinions and beliefs of the whole scientific community, and what scientists as a whole think, you've made up your mind concerning the existence of a consensus.

Your only claimed evidence for such a consensus is review articles.

Nevertheless, I'm curious to know how you managed to find out what "scientists as a whole" think? I'm also interested to see how you acquired information as to what "scientists as a whole believe." I think you are over-reaching your grasp.


The majority of peer-reviewed articles on climate and climate change, from the various fields of study, and dealing with the related phenomena that make reference to that subject, take no position with respect to human causation.

It is difficult to derive a position of consensus from cases where no position is taken.
 
Your only claimed evidence for such a consensus is review articles.
Well as I stated earlier, since the ultimate goal of a literature review is to "bring the reader up to date with current literature on a topic", and to "review the critical points of current knowledge on a particular topic", they're all that's needed to conclude that the claim of a consensus is accurate. We're still waiting for a literature review that comes to a different conclusion.

I was making reference to the fact that "consensus" means nothing more than general agreement. That is the general meaning of the word consensus. What exactly is the specific quality of "general?" It's more than a little vague. What is this word consensus making reference to? Is it making reference to scientists who accept it? Is it about papers that contain the word? Is it making a reference to those who simply accept a consensus but have no knowledge how it was arrived at? Is it about actual evidence that supports the idea that is framing the consensus concerning AGW? Is it based on belief, or assumptions or the drawing of casual relationships? Is the consensus concerning AGW one that suggests only a tiny effect on climate, or is that effect of crisis proportions? Who is acting as a referee as to how the word is being employed? You might want to think the word is being employed in a very specific sense, but it isn't. No one owns the meaning of the word consensus.
Dictionary.com is your friend.

Consensus
1. majority of opinion
2. general agreement or concord; harmony

Since we've already agreed that the majority of the literature reviewed agrees on the question of humans affecting the climate, and that there's general agreement on the answer, we can conclude that there is in fact a consensus among that literature.

If all you want is a simple yes or no answer, then I can assume that an assertion to a supposed consensus will satisfy you and many other people, and that will be that. Sure, there are many climate scientists who can reasonably argue that humans contribute to climate change. Why not just say something clear and concise to that effect? But of those who accept a human cause to AGW, ask them to what degree human beings affect climate, and you will get a wide range of answers. That is important because understanding the relative effect would be essential when addressing the correct policies to deal with the issue. So even among those who accept human impact, understanding the degree of effect is important if something useful is to be done in terms of environmental policy.
The OP talked about policy resulting from the cautionary principle, but since then the debate has simply been about if humans are affecting the climate.

So why resort to a vague phrasing that inevitably suggests a numbers game, and will only get used as a political means to an end? Whether you like it or not, the word "consensus" is a driving force with respect to this issue. It is a political word in that it references a supposed majority that has never been counted. The vagueness of the word serves political ends while saying nothing clearly.
Policymakers and lobbyists using the word "consensus" of course have politics in mind when they're trying to affect policy. But on the simple question of whether or not there's a consensus in the relevant literature on humans causing climate change, politics has nothing to do with it.

The global climate is complex and not reducible to a yes/no event.
When answering the question, "are humans affecting the climate", yes it is.
 
Consensus refers to most climate researchers believing that it is likely or very likely that human activity contributes to climate change. And again it boggles my mind that you continuously bring up "to what degree", etc. etc. I made it clear repeatedly, that's not what I'm talking about. Please read the following paragraph carefully and take the time to process it because the message is clearly not getting through.

My assertion is that research indicates that humans contribute to climate change. We don't know to what degree, we don't know what the consequences will be, etc. But we do know that humans likely contribute (to some unquantifiable extent) to global warming. It may be a little... it may be a lot. We don't know and I've never made any claims re: these issues. Further research is needed to answer the other questions.

I can assume that an assertion to a supposed consensus will satisfy you and many other people...

No. It's not a question of satisfying anyone. It's a matter of following strict scientific protocol. Have a specific hypothesis, answer it specifically, and then generate new questions. The first question is: do humans contribute to climate? The answer seems to be yes. So the next question is: how much do they contribute? Researchers are still working on that.

I know that all you want is a yes or no answer, and that you are not interested when I point out the word is essentially gutless with respect to to any actual degree of reference (yes, I said it again); but degree is a big part of the debate taking place.

I'm not interested in the debate, the politics, the lay press, etc. I'm interested in the science. Confusing a specific hypothesis with other variables such as "to what degree" is exactly what the naysayers are trying to do to confuse the public and to discredit the science. Consensus is not necessarily a political word and establishing a consensus based on current evidence is a very meaningful endeavour in science, medicine, etc.

As for your second post, I find it very confusing and I have no idea what you're trying to get at. Yes, I said I'm not an expert in the field and I rely on reviewing the literature from experts who do study climate to form my opinion. I reviewed the literature, I formed my opinion. Period.

Your only claimed evidence for such a consensus is review articles.

Nevertheless, I'm curious to know how you managed to find out what "scientists as a whole" think? I'm also interested to see how you acquired information as to what "scientists as a whole believe." I think you are over-reaching your grasp.

Huh? I established what climate researchers as a whole think from the review articles. Not over-reaching at all. That is how you guage scientific opinion. Not from telephone surveys.

I'm not sure what sorts of literature reviews you do, but I'm guessing they are not scientific... and that's fine... I have nothing against that. But evaluating the scientific literature is difficult and one has to know how to do it. It's difficult to know how to evaluate different levels of evidence and weigh evidence for or against something. It's a skill that has to be learned. I get the sense that you're more interested in proving your argument than understanding why there is a so-called consensus. The consensus is on a very modest claim that humans contribute to climate. Nothing about how much or what it all means, but simply that there is some contribution. And it's not because I don't care about these questions, it's just that in science, you have to have the discipline to stick to your hypothesis and answer the question specifically. That's why I never made any claims about "degree and range", because I don't know... not because I don't care, as you suggested. Future research is required to establish the degree and the consequences as these are important in establishing public policy. But for now, what we know is that humans make some contribution. End of story.
 
Consensus refers to most climate researchers believing that it is likely or very likely that human activity contributes to climate change. And again it boggles my mind that you continuously bring up "to what degree", etc. etc. I made it clear repeatedly, that's not what I'm talking about. Please read the following paragraph carefully and take the time to process it because the message is clearly not getting through.

So the consensus is now stated to be only among those take a position? This is quite a big different than the "scientific community as a whole" as you suggested earlier.

That being said, it's like saying that among people who believe in santa claus, there is a consensus that santa claus exists. It only speaks to those who take a position and does not reference the scientific community as a whole as you have proclaimed. Those who take a position are not all of the scientists across the whole scientific community.

As for your dislike concerning degree, let me remind you that degree will play a very big role in determining adequate policy - something else you have stated little knowledge or little interest in. So what if it's not what you want talk about? Do you define the entire issue surrounding climate change? In that respect, it does not matter what you think about degree. Degree matters with respect to generating useful, sustainable and realistic environmental policy. What you think does not change that.

My assertion is that research indicates that humans contribute to climate change.

Some of the research indicates this, not all - certainly not enough to derive a supposed consensus that across the entire scientific community "as whole" an overwhelming majority supports such a position - as you have alleged earlier.

I'm not interested in the debate, the politics, the lay press, etc. I'm interested in the science. Confusing a specific hypothesis with other variables such as "to what degree" is exactly what the naysayers are trying to do to confuse the public and to discredit the science. Consensus is not necessarily a political word and establishing a consensus based on current evidence is a very meaningful endeavour in science, medicine, etc.

Of course you are not interested, but you then go on to presume that anyone who questions your assertion of a supposed consensus is only trying to confuse the public. You have automatically presumed that anyone questions your consensus can't be doing science. Careful, it is you who is discrediting science by suggesting that a point of view that disagrees with your own is automatically propaganda.

As for your second post, I find it very confusing and I have no idea what you're trying to get at.

It relates to your general confusion about what you have stated to know or not know. What I am getting at here is that your proclamations concerning knowledge as to what the whole scientific community thinks or believes (these are your words) is something of a fantasy. You know no such things about entire communities or the entire body of research. Review articles are necessarily thematic in structure; they are not a broad-ranging discursive exploring an entire field of inquiry. Such an effort would require a book. The majority of peer-reviewed articles on climate and climate change, from the various fields of study, and dealing with the related phenomena that make reference to that subject, take no position with respect to human causation. You can't derive a consensus when no opinion on an issue is provided. Unless you are taking telephone surveys.

Huh? I established what climate researchers as a whole think from the review articles.

Review articles are constructed and around organized around specific themes. Is it then any wonder that a review article that asserts anthropogenic causation and a consensus to that affect as a theme would not come to such a conclusion by way of finding those scientific views that support it? Would it not include papers that assert such a position. At the same time, if you bother to look, review articles can contain numerous citations to papers that take no position whatsoever that would support such a consensus position. Have you gone through your selected review articles on climate change to see what the cited papers actually say on this issue?

There is an opinion among some scientists that human activity contributes to climate change. That's the best that can be said presently.
 
Well as I stated earlier, since the ultimate goal of a literature review is to "bring the reader up to date with current literature on a topic", and to "review the critical points of current knowledge on a particular topic", they're all that's needed to conclude that the claim of a consensus is accurate. We're still waiting for a literature review that comes to a different conclusion.

You've neglected to mention that literature reviews are built around specific themes, as well. They are constrained for the sake of brevity.

Dictionary.com is your friend.

Consensus
1. majority of opinion
2. general agreement or concord; harmony

Had you bothered to read, you would have noted that I already provided a definition for the word consensus.

Since we've already agreed that the majority of the literature reviewed agrees on the question of humans affecting the climate, and that there's general agreement on the answer, we can conclude that there is in fact a consensus among that literature.

The literature reviews that focus on themes relating to a consensus concerning anthropogenic effects on climate will show a consensus. It's a rather circular statement. That being said, there is a considerable body of climate research relating to climate change and the phenomena surrounding it in which no position is asserted with respect to human causation. So there is no consensus in the literature.

Policymakers and lobbyists using the word "consensus" of course have politics in mind when they're trying to affect policy. But on the simple question of whether or not there's a consensus in the relevant literature on humans causing climate change, politics has nothing to do with it.

Based on this statement, you clearly know nothing about generating public policy. Conflating policymakers and lobbyists illustrates as much. Your description that consensus alone is enough just does not cut it when trying to derive useful and sustainable policy. It might satisfy your prejudices, but it does nothing else practical.

Invoking "consensus" as some perceived good-enough final conclusion is useless in public policy. It would be like operating as if the word "threat" was a gold standard and self-explanatory. It isn't. Threats differ very greatly in degree and in kind. The only way to do something useful is to understand those things with greater clarity. For that reason, consensus is a lifeless description.
 
So the consensus is now stated to be only among those take a position? This is quite a big different than the "scientific community as a whole" as you suggested earlier.

That being said, it's like saying that among people who believe in santa claus, there is a consensus that santa claus exists. It only speaks to those who take a position and does not reference the scientific community as a whole as you have proclaimed. Those who take a position are not all of the scientists across the whole scientific community.

I'm not interested in semantics. I'm more interested in explaining scientific principles and how evidence is evaluated. Climate researchers are in general agreement that humans warm the earth. Period.

Some of the research indicates this, not all - certainly not enough to derive a supposed consensus that across the entire scientific community "as whole" an overwhelming majority supports such a position - as you have alleged earlier.

Show me the evidence. I've shown you that every recent literature review on the subject indicates there is a consensus. The 2004 survery (Oreskes) indicates there is a consensus. The IPCC report indicates that humans likely warm the environment. Every national scientific body of industrialised nations agrees with the consensus. That's a very broad consensus. I'd like to see more than an article co-authored by a someone from the Cato Institute before I'm willing to doubt the current overwhelming consensus.

Of course you are not interested, but you go on to presume that anyone who questions your assertion of a supposed consensus is only trying to confuse the public. You have automatically assumed that anyone questions your consensus can't be doing science. Careful, you are discrediting science by suggesting that a point of view that disagrees with your own is automatically propaganda.

No, not everyone who disagrees with the so-called consensus is deliberately trying to mislead the public, some are victims of the relentless propaganda machines of right wing government. Because for now, any way you look at the literature, there is a general agreement.

The problem is that now there may be good data refuting the theory of human contribution to climate change but their voices may not be heard as loudly because people are now suspicious of that side after seeing such deplorable acts as governments trying to silence scientists. However, if enough negative studies come up, the consensus could change. That's the dynamic nature of science. A consensus can change as more evidence becomes available.

Careful, you are discrediting science by suggesting that a point of view that disagrees with your own is automatically propaganda.

It's no more discrediting that someone saying, "the evidence indicates that tobacco smoking increases the risk of lung cancer, and you are wrong to disagree". As for being victims of propaganda, I assume the average Joe won't sit down and examine the scientific literature. So when you see him protesting and declaring global warming is BS, I often assume that he's been duped by someone who had something at stake. That's also what I'd think if I saw people protesting that tobacco causes lung cancer or that HIV causes AIDS.

What I am getting at is that your proclamations concerning knowledge as to what the whole scientific community thinks or believes (these are your words) is something of a fantasy. You know no such things. The majority of peer-reviewed articles on climate and climate change, from the various fields of study, and dealing with the related phenomena that make reference to that subject, take no position with respect to human causation. You can't derive a such a position when none is take. Unless you are taking telephone surveys.

Well, surveys are not as a good quality of evidence as examining the published literature. Surveys are basically subjective opinions of people who may or may not be familiar with the state of research. But why would you include reviews that don't deal with issue of human causation? Those should be the ones you use your literature review. You could do a search of "climate+change+human" or "global+warming+human". This search would probably have an equal chance of turning up positive and negative studies as those key words would show up in either kind of article. For example, in a positive study, somewhere in the text it would say, "there is evidence that human activity contributes to climate change". If it's a negative study, it would say "we found no evidence that human activity contributes to climate change". And you could use many other search terms. The bottom line is, there aren't a lot of negative studies and there are many more positive studies and many positive review articles.

Review articles contain numerous citations to papers that take no position whatsoever that would support such a consensus position. Have you gone through your selected review articles to see what the cited papers actually say on this issue?

No, I haven't. It is time prohibitive to read every cited article. That's why people do literature reviews, so that others can get a summary of the state of the research without having to read 80 articles per day. The reviews would have been reviewed by the journal's editor and two to three other reviewers before being accepted and published.

There is an opinion among some scientists that human activity contributes to climate change.

I (and I'm sure other teachers) would certainly deduct marks for that sort of statement coming from a review of the literature. It does not completely accurately describe the current state of the literature. I would expect something along the lines of "climate research suggests that human activity likely contributes to climate change" or "there appears to be a general agreement among climate researchers that human activity likely contributes to climate change". Then you would conclude with something such as, "Further research is required to elucidate the degree to which humans contribute and what the potential consequences may be."
 
The literature reviews that focus on themes relating to a consensus concerning anthropogenic effects on climate will show a consensus. It's a rather circular statement. That being said, there is a considerable body of climate research relating to climate change and the phenomena surrounding it in which no position is asserted with respect to human causation. So there is no consensus in the literature.
Literature reviews don't focus on "a consensus concerning anthropogenic effects on climate change". There's no consensus assumed. They focus on anthropogenic effects on climate change, period. There's a difference.

You seem to be implying that work that doesn't take a position started out with the intent of taking a position and didn't come to any conclusions. Can you show that this is the case? If it were, that work would be included in literature reviews that look for the current thinking on that position. If it's not the case, then it shouldn't be included in those literature reviews because it's not relevant to the question.

If you want to answer a scientific question, you review the literature that attempts to answer that question. It's not a circular statement, it's logic.

Based on this statement, you clearly know nothing about generating public policy. Conflating policymakers and lobbyists illustrates as much. Your description that consensus alone is enough just does not cut it when trying to derive useful and sustainable policy. It might satisfy your prejudices, but it does nothing else practical.

Invoking "consensus" as some perceived good-enough final conclusion is useless in public policy. It would be like operating as if the word "threat" was a gold standard and self-explanatory. It isn't. Threats differ very greatly in degree and in kind. The only way to do something useful is to understand those things with greater clarity. For that reason, consensus is a lifeless description.
You're still not getting it. Nobody's arguing with you about politics and policy. Politics and policy have absolutely nothing to do with the question of whether or not the climate research agrees that we're affecting the climate.
 
Literature reviews don't focus on "a consensus concerning anthropogenic effects on climate change". There's no consensus assumed. They focus on anthropogenic effects on climate change, period. There's a difference.

Read some of the papers. There is an assumption of consensus.

You seem to be implying that work that doesn't take a position started out with the intent of taking a position and didn't come to any conclusions. Can you show that this is the case? If it were, that work would be included in literature reviews that look for the current thinking on that position. If it's not the case, then it shouldn't be included in those literature reviews because it's not relevant to the question.

Can you show something in light of when something is not mentioned? When no reference to human causation is made, no reference to human causation is stated. It can' be any clearer than that.

Show what to be the case? You can't show what is not there. Is that a difficult concept for you to grasp? If you are going to invoke logic, then try to be logical.

If you want to answer a scientific question, you review the literature that attempts to answer that question. It's not a circular statement, it's logic.

It is a circular argument when a review is established to look at who among those agree with anthropogenic causation supports an assertion for anthropogenic causation.

You're still not getting it. Nobody's arguing with you about politics and policy. Politics and policy have absolutely nothing to do with the question of whether or not the climate research agrees that we're affecting the climate.

Your response is out of context. Policy deals with action, correct action depends on degree; if there is no clear understanding concerning the degree of effect, then policy becomes useless - possibly damaging. Among those who agree with the assertion of an anthropogenic effect on climate, there is no clear understanding to what degree human beings are having an impact. That would be crucial in formulating useful policy initiatives.
 
Read some of the papers. There is an assumption of consensus.
Are you talking about literature reviews or papers that reference them?

Literature reviews are not only to review the current scientific thinking on a topic, but to form the justification for further research. Is that what you're talking about when you mention assumptions?

Can you show something in light of when something is not mentioned? When no reference to human causation is made, no reference to human causation is stated. It can' be any clearer than that.

Show what to be the case? You can't show what is not there. Is that a difficult concept for you to grasp? If you are going to invoke logic, then try to be logical.
*sigh* Let me try again. Let's say a researcher attempts to figure out if humans affect the climate. They don't succeed and come to no conclusion on that question. If this happens, that researcher's work would be included in literature reviews trying to answer that question. If the majority of the work fits this descriptoin, then the literature reviews would conclude that there's no general agreement.

Conversely, if the work you mention makes no reference to human causation at all, it's completely off topic and shouldn't be reviewed because it's not relevant to the question.

So is the work you keep mentioning that states no position the former or the latter? If it's the latter like your last post implies, it has no place in a literature review that tries to figure out if humans are affecting the climate.

It is a circular argument when a review is established to look at who among those agree with anthropogenic causation supports an assertion for anthropogenic causation.
Reviews don't look at those who agree with anthropogentic causation! They look at those who are studying the question of anthropogenic causation. It just so happens that the vast majority of those who study the question agree on the answer.

Your response is out of context. Policy deals with action, correct action depends on degree; if there is no clear understanding concerning the degree of effect, then policy becomes useless - possibly damaging. Among those who agree with the assertion of an anthropogenic effect on climate, there is no clear understanding to what degree human beings are having an impact. That would be crucial in formulating useful policy initiatives.
For the last time, politics and policy have absolutely nothing to do with the question of whether or not the climate research agrees that we're affecting the climate.
 
Are you talking about literature reviews or papers that reference them?

Literature reviews are not only to review the current scientific thinking on a topic, but to form the justification for further research. Is that what you're talking about when you mention assumptions?

Yes, there are literature reviews that implicitly or explicitly recognize an assumed consensus position in order to assess the state of that argument because there are scientists who accept a human effect on climate. That may be how a specific reviewer is framing their review. Research papers that take no position with respect to human causation, but cover a certain topic related to climate change, are often referenced in such a review. One should not assume that a cited paper automatically supports the consensus position simply because it was cited in a paper that does so. There are many literature reviews related to topics directly related to climate change that are examinations of climate phenomena, but make no reference to human causation.

*sigh* Let me try again. Let's say a researcher attempts to figure out if humans affect the climate. They don't succeed and come to no conclusion on that question. If this happens, that researcher's work would be included in literature reviews trying to answer that question. If the majority of the work fits this descriptoin, then the literature reviews would conclude that there's no general agreement.

Conversely, if the work you mention makes no reference to human causation at all, it's completely off topic and shouldn't be reviewed because it's not relevant to the question.

So is the work you keep mentioning that states no position the former or the latter? If it's the latter like your last post implies, it has no place in a literature review that tries to figure out if humans are affecting the climate.

If a researcher attempts to figure out if humans affect the climate, and fails to do so, this will inevitably end up in a literature review? Says who? Can you actually point out that this is somehow a constant rule? Your question is pure speculation.

Your second point is not the converse of the first point. There is an immense body of research examining climate change - because changes climate change is an on-going and natural phenomena - even to this day. Studies of climate change don't all conclude with a yes or no with respect to an attribution concerning human causation. But these papers do end up being cited in review papers that may conclude that there is an anthropogenic contribution. This should not be difficult to understand.

A literature review that attempts to review the science related to examining human causation with respect to climate change will inevitably include research sources that make no reference to human causation. One should not automatically assume that a paper cited automatically supports the theme or purpose of the review. These papers are cited because they make reference to specific phenomena that are of interest to the person writing the review.

Reviews don't look at those who agree with anthropogentic causation! They look at those who are studying the question of anthropogenic causation. It just so happens that the vast majority of those who study the question agree on the answer.

Some papers are reviews that examine the research related to anthropogenic causation. They examine the research carried out by people who study the potential for anthropogenic causation and conclude that there is a likelihood for anthropogenic causation, or suggest it as a possibility. They examine the climate phenomena related to this assertion. So yes, they look at research that agrees with a perspective that there is a probability for anthropogenic causation - those trying to identify signals to that effect. So what is your point?

As to your second sentence, so there is a majority view among those who suggest or agree with an anthropogenic impact on climate that there is an anthropogenic impact on climate. How surprising.

For the last time, politics and policy have absolutely nothing to do with the question of whether or not the climate research agrees that we're affecting the climate.

Nobody said it ever did. The issue here has been whether the body of research concerning climate change and its related phenomena shows a consensus with respect to human causation. It does not, as a majority of the research makes no reference to human attribution. In other words, you can't count the vote if it ain't cast.

It's the research that is supposed to help generate a conclusion, not just the conclusion that is supposed to drive the research. The latter can direct and select the type of research that gets done. That can and does get political if people are not careful. Science gets lots of funding from government, and government is political.
 
So, basically you're saying that reviews of the literature that conclude that humans contribute to climate change are flawed. I guess they must all be flawed because they all conclude that humans likely affect climate.

Other than providing your own personal opinions (low level of evidence) and explanations, you haven't provided much to counter the assertion the there is a general agreement among climate researchers that humans affect climate. You've cited a couple of studies (one co-authored by someone from the Cato Institute), but this is where knowing how to weigh the evidence becomes important.

I'd like to see some evidence cited... evidence that can stand against all the evidence for the notion that humans do affect climate, which include:

1. All recent climate change review articles concluding that human activity contributes.
2. IPCC statement.
3. National Scientific bodies of all industrialised countries agreeing that human activity affects climate.
4. Countless other organisations that agree with the consensus (nicely summarised on Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change

Take note of the following:

With the July 2007 release of the revised statement by the American Association of Petroleum Geologists, no remaining scientific body of national or international standing is known to reject the basic findings of human influence on recent climate.

This is not subtle, it's a consensus.
 
I'm not interested in semantics. I'm more interested in explaining scientific principles and how evidence is evaluated. Climate researchers are in general agreement that humans warm the earth. Period.

Explaining principles requires clear meaning with respect to the words that are being used. Odd that you would not consider this to be of importance.

Show me the evidence. I've shown you that every recent literature review on the subject indicates there is a consensus. The 2004 survery (Oreskes) indicates there is a consensus. The IPCC report indicates that humans likely warm the environment. Every national scientific body of industrialised nations agrees with the consensus. That's a very broad consensus. I'd like to see more than an article co-authored by a someone from the Cato Institute before I'm willing to doubt the current overwhelming consensus.

You are the one asserting a consensus with respect to the whole scientific community and the published research. The burden of proof is on you to show it. If papers take no position on an anthropogenic cause for climate change, they assert no position. Period. This can't be so difficult to grasp, can it?

A literature review can contain references to papers that make no attribution to human causation. The paper you cited earlier does so. It includes papers to make reference to a specific phenomena. The IPCC does the same thing.

I have literature reviews on climate change phenomena such as droughts, sea level rise, ocean oscillations and solar-climate couplings - all major phenomena with respect to climate and climate change. None makes reference to anthropogenic causation when assessing the changes observed, or when trying to understand why such changes take place.

As for Oreskes, she cites 928 papers from over 11,000 articles on climate change from 1993 to 2003. Of her study, she suggested that 75% either explicitly or implicitly accepted the consensus view, and that 25% took no position with respect to anthropogenic causes for climate change. What is not clear from her research (if you've read it) is whether those papers in the "yes" category actually conclude that human activity is changing climate, or whether they they just raised a concern with respect to such a possibility. Her work is not particularly clear on distinctions.

But you don't want to know about distinctions.

No, not everyone who disagrees with the so-called consensus is deliberately trying to mislead the public, some are victims of the relentless propaganda machines of right wing government. Because for now, any way you look at the literature, there is a general agreement.

The research that disagrees with your asserted consensus might actually have excellent arguments as well, have you ever considered that? Do recall the fact that climate has always been changing. It is a well-recognized constant of nature. Otherwise, your sentence makes you sound like you have a very closed mind. As a teacher, would you be okay with your students suggesting that alternate arguments in science are the product of politics, right wing conspiracies, or other philosophies they so happen to disagree with and vilify? As a scientist, do you always automatically label views you disagree with in such terms?

As for the propaganda machines, and evil right-wing governments, the Unites States government is, in terms of funding, the largest contributor to climate research. The Canadian government also a major source of funding for climate research, as well. So to with the British, Germans, French governments, and so on.

Rather than letting your politics blind you, maybe you should try to make distinctions between the public service and their myriad of branches and departments, and the administration.

The problem is that now there may be good data refuting the theory of human contribution to climate change but their voices may not be heard as loudly because people are now suspicious of that side after seeing such deplorable acts as governments trying to silence scientists.

I think we can both agree that any government that unreasonably attempts to silence scientists better have a damn good reason as to why they tried to do so. But as to why people would confuse that action with scientists who have good data that shows other causation for climate change is a little beyond me. Such a response is unreasonable.

It's no more discrediting that someone saying, "the evidence indicates that tobacco smoking increases the risk of lung cancer, and you are wrong to disagree". As for being victims of propaganda, I assume the average Joe won't sit down and examine the scientific literature. So when you see him protesting and declaring global warming is BS, I often assume that he's been duped by someone who had something at stake. That's also what I'd think if I saw people protesting that tobacco causes lung cancer or that HIV causes AIDS.

So are you suggesting that no alternate scientific point of view to a human causation for climate change is worth considering? What about natural causes for climate change? With all due respect, owing to the extremely complex and dynamical nature of climate, and the numerous unanswered questions regarding natural climate processes, climate change is quite a different phenomena than a smoking-lung cancer relationship or AIDS. The methods of inquiry and means to show meaningful relationships are quite different in each case.

But going back to the propaganda, most "average" people won't be examining the scientific literature either way. But it is also fair to say that an overwhelming number of media stories about climate change centre most specifically on human causation and bad outcomes. Worse yet, many of these pieces tend to emphasize imminent disaster. Some of this has been driven not only by politicians, but by scientists as well. But by and large, the media likes a good disaster story. All too often, floods, hurricanes, snow storms, glacier movements and heat wave are glaringly attributed to human-caused global warming - without any proof. Even if there was a human contribution, it would be impossible to separate the specific impact of that human effect from the much more prevalent and powerful natural processes.

But why would you include reviews that don't deal with issue of human causation? Those should be the ones you use your literature review.

Because there are reviews that examine aspects of climate change that don't automatically make reference to human activity. Because there are reviews that examine the state of understanding of the specific phenomena that are directly related to climate change. These are reviews of the state of climate science as it relates to understanding why global or local climate changes. Not all reviews in climatology relating to a changing climate automatically focus on human causation. Climate change is first and foremost a natural and ongoing phenomena. Too many people have automatically assumed that climate change means human contribution.

You could do a search of "climate+change+human" or "global+warming+human". This search would probably have an equal chance of turning up positive and negative studies as those key words would show up in either kind of article.

Sure, you would find articles on human contributions to climate change. I've never doubted that such articles exist. And if you go through those articles you would find a great degree of variation as to how that relationship is treated in each article. For example, there would be those that suggest a strong correlation between human emissions of C02 and temperature change that could affect climate. Others, for example, would point to potential impacts of human C02 emissions on the possibility of drought. Others might point to the potential effects of a warming atmosphere on the arctic region. Still, others papers might simply make a statement acknowledging that there have been connections between human activity and climate, but that paper may then make no statement in its conclusion either way in terms of agreeing or disagreeing with that position. There are some that state a position that there is a human impact on climate, but that the impact is small. In other words, there are many ways in which the subject of a human impact on climate can be treated in the research. They are not all concluding with an absolute affirmative in equal measure. There is that matter of degree...

I (and I'm sure other teachers) would certainly deduct marks for that sort of statement coming from a review of the literature. It does not completely accurately describe the current state of the literature. I would expect something along the lines of "climate research suggests that human activity likely contributes to climate change" or "there appears to be a general agreement among climate researchers that human activity likely contributes to climate change". Then you would conclude with something such as, "Further research is required to elucidate the degree to which humans contribute and what the potential consequences may be."

Thanks teach. You've advertised your credentials fairly well (Ph.d, doctor, teacher). But do note that asserting knowledge of what the scientific community as a whole knows or believes - which you have done on this thread - would get lots of laughs from many other scientists (and bad marks, too). As I have pointed out here, there is no General Theory of Climate in existence. Climate is an extremely complex phenomena and its study spans across many disciplines. To pretend to know what the consensus is with respect to the the potential effects of human emissions of C02 across this science - particularly when no such agreement to a consensus has been provided in so many instances - is an extremely large presumption.

The actual long-term effects of human emissions of infrared absorbing gases on the climate remain very largely unknown. This is even noted in the IPCC. The only assertions as to the possible effects of C02 are largely derived from highly parameterized computer models, and none of these models have been independently validated. Presently, there is also no clear way to distinguish any human signal on climate from that of natural climate phenomena.

Owing to the fact that this is a bulletin board and these posts can get quite long, I like to opt for brevity now and then. Nothing wrong with your first suggestion with respect to a literature review. Concerning your second one, if many climate researchers take no position with respect to anthropogenic causation, they can't get roped into being part of a general agreement. In other words, if one does not vote, a vote cannot be counted. You can't just pretend to know how everyone would vote on the basis of some of those who did.


Or as As Ludwig Wittgenstein once said:

Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.
 

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