Subway To Mississauga: Routing

[Hipster Duck]

You say Mississauga is too decentralized, so you solution solution is a transit system that concentrates on nodes??? Are you serious?

If you read my post, you would see that I think that Mississauga wants to intensify its existing (MCC) core, but has to deal with the fact that the overwhelming majority of its commuter trips are to decentralized locations. That's why I argue for a system like regional rail that travels quickly and carries a lot of people from node to node in a vast region, while connecting trips to the decentralized hinterland are made by a flexible bus solution.

A decentralized or dispersed urban form requires a grid-like transit system, not a radial system. You can't have a radial system without a very strong core, which Mississauga does not have. That's why LRT lines along Dundas and Hurontario are best solution for Mississauga.

Again, Mississauga's intention is to concentrate office and residential development in the core (its success - particularly on the office front - is another story). I'm not sure how many people would use intermediate stops on an LRT between MCC and Islington/Kipling; and if they did, would their trip ultimately be faster if it was on a bus to a frequent regional rail (REX) station?

Also, I don't think that having one or two LRT lines constitues a "grid".

 

[Amphibius]

But you haven't really told me where the riders from MCC are going. They're going to Islington subway station? That's like saying that my vacation involves going to the airport. What is their final destination? This should determine the type of service you provide, not arbitrarily building a subway or LRT to connect to Islington station.

Cooksville GO station, which is connected to the downtown Toronto by a handful of inbound and outbound trains (based on a traditional rush hour travel pattern) and a once an hour bus that doesn't even really follow the same route isn't a fair comparison, either.

The commuters whom utilize Kipling/Islington are destined for many places throughout Toronto/416 (Downtown, Midtown, Uptown, Scarborough, North York, locations right off Bloor/Danforth itself, etc.); some places perhaps more readily accessible via the Bloor-Danforth Line. What we might be compensating for in reduced stops (equaling shorter overall commutes into downtown Toronto) via the Milton GO Line however is lost by the number of transfers/backtracking passengers are subjected to before/after Union. For instance, say I lived in MCC and worked at Bathurst-College, how is the commuter rail service of any benefit over an improvement in node-to-feeder route proximity via extending the subway line directly into Square One?

I guarantee you that 8/10 commuters will still find express buses + subway much easier to use, even if Milton GO headways were to improve. There's no denying that 484,000 daily boardings for the total Bloor-Danforth (nearly one-quarter of which we can deduce originates from 905 West) trounces 24,306 daily boardings for the total Milton GO Line. Meaning even if frequency improved to the point that ridership rose by 20% within the next decade, that's still drops in the bucket compared what Mississauga's high population density actually entitles it to.

What is their final destination, you asked? Simple, for westbounders that would be Mississisauga City Centre; and just as with every other extension proposal on the books (TYSSE, YUS to RHC, Sheppard or B-D to SCC) we have to pass through less dense, less transit-oriented regions in order to access the end-destination. In contrast to those other lines though, the intermediate stops here would actually offer up quite a bit in the way of preexisting developments, although it's mainly car-oriented commercial zones at this point.

 

[Dan416]

I really believe we need to give people options. Give us GO service equivalent to Lakeshore and people will use it. Give us a subway and it'll see use too. Mississauga has over 700,000 people (and growing). It can support both.

 

[unimaginative2]

I guarantee you that 8/10 commuters will still find express buses + subway much easier to use, even if Milton GO headways were to improve. There's no denying that 484,000 daily boardings for the total Bloor-Danforth (nearly one-quarter of which we can deduce originates from 905 West) trounces 24,306 daily boardings for the total Milton GO Line. Meaning even if frequency improved to the point that ridership rose by 20% within the next decade, that's still drops in the bucket compared what Mississauga's high population density actually entitles it to.

I'm sorry, but you just can't compare the Milton GO service to the subway and then say that far more people want to take the subway than a hypothetical regional rail system. Regional rail is as different from the Milton GO service as a subway is from a bus that comes once an hour. There simply is no comparison. You have to think about this as something completely different from GO service that doesn't currently exist in Toronto. This is a train with the frequency of a subway (or close to it) that runs more quickly, stops less frequently, has more comfortable seating, and happens to run on tracks that have already been built. This service wouldn't have a completely separate fare system like GO currently does. It would be integrated into the TTC and Mississauga networks.

The commuters whom utilize Kipling/Islington are destined for many places throughout Toronto/416 (Downtown, Midtown, Uptown, Scarborough, North York, locations right off Bloor/Danforth itself, etc.); some places perhaps more readily accessible via the Bloor-Danforth Line. What we might be compensating for in reduced stops (equaling shorter overall commutes into downtown Toronto) via the Milton GO Line however is lost by the number of transfers/backtracking passengers are subjected to before/after Union. For instance, say I lived in MCC and worked at Bathurst-College, how is the commuter rail service of any benefit over an improvement in node-to-feeder route proximity via extending the subway line directly into Square One?

Of course the regional rail service would offer a far better service to Bathurst-College than the existing subway! A subway would make ~22 stops between MCC and Bathurst station. That means a travel time of at least 50 minutes. With regional rail, you'd be only 20 minutes away from Dundas West, and even with a transfer you'd be at Bathurst station in at most 35 minutes from MCC. That's a time savings of at least a quarter of an hour, and you'd also have a much more comfortable trip in a regional rail train.

Why do you think that people wouldn't ride a train service that's just about as frequent as a subway but is much faster and more comfortable? Regional rail isn't commuter rail, it's rapid transit that's faster and more comfortable.

 

[autopilot]

What expanded bus service are you looking at?????

Current ridership is 25,000 daily.

Based on 3% for 2030, you are looking at 80,000.

Ridership at Cooksville is 60% less than Dundas.

Why built it to Eglinton when it only 1 km from Sq One and it not a trip generator now with higher riders up north????

Clearly you don't understand Hurontario.

Pardon me, I don't check the site that often these days so if I don't respond to someone "?????ing" me and assuming I don't know anything please forgive me.

The RT comment was just a thought I had that I wanted to share. Maybe I should have posted it in a "things that will never happen, but let's argue about them anyway thread"

The 'ideal' solution for Hurontario is a subway. This is obvious. Adding LRT cars until you have a nice little threesome is a waste of money. Make the investment now, and move on to the next project.

 

[drum118]

Pardon me, I don't check the site that often these days so if I don't respond to someone "?????ing" me and assuming I don't know anything please forgive me.

The RT comment was just a thought I had that I wanted to share. Maybe I should have posted it in a "things that will never happen, but let's argue about them anyway thread"

The 'ideal' solution for Hurontario is a subway. This is obvious. Adding LRT cars until you have a nice little threesome is a waste of money. Make the investment now, and move on to the next project.

How much do you think this subway is going to cost for what you proposed??????

What happen to rest of the city if you invest this can of money for an Subway vs. LRT vs. BRT????

You should have been to the event in Port Credit Wednesday night and listen to what The Commissioner of Transportation for NYC had to say about your suggestion.

By the way, how much of NYC will fit into Mississauga area??

 

[EnviroTO]

• Most of the traffic through to Islington Stn originates from out-of-town MT routes (85.7% of a total 42,080 daily boardings), not via the local feeders/walk-ins.
• The Milton Line @Cooksville GO in particular only sees around 3200 customers per day (13.1% of a total 24,306 daily boardings).

As far as the Islington number goes... that is a transfer point, not a destination. If these people are going downtown then the GO at Cooksville providing all-day service will get them there faster. If they are headed north on one of the other subway routes then the Eglinton BRT/LRT will likely get them there faster.

As far as a subway from Kipling via Cooksville to MCC... why? There will be a Hurontario LRT to cover that route and it makes no sense to have a subway running an identical path to another rapid transit line.

 

[autopilot]

You can sing the subways cost money song all you want. It's a number one hit on the political radio these days but the bottom line is that they work. And once you have them, it's a permanent investment. None of this upgrade from bus to LRT, then LRT to double LRT, double LRT to triple LRT business.

Here is what they are going to say in 20-30 years when the public starts saying "Why don't you build a subway and replace these fossil LRT trains?"

"Back at the turn of the century we could have done it for half the price, but now in the 2040's it's just not an option financially. Sorry, we are Canadians at heart and we pussy-foot around solving our urban problems because our country is prodominently nature, mountains, hunters, oh and oil. Oil for the cars. The cars which we propped up with your money."

Subways.

But tell me what the NYC transportation lady said... I read the Star article today and it was talking about reclaiming the streets and creating better public space.

 

[Amphibius]

As far as the Islington number goes... that is a transfer point, not a destination. If these people are going downtown then the GO at Cooksville providing all-day service will get them there faster. If they are headed north on one of the other subway routes then the Eglinton BRT/LRT will likely get them there faster.

As far as a subway from Kipling via Cooksville to MCC... why? There will be a Hurontario LRT to cover that route and it makes no sense to have a subway running an identical path to another rapid transit line.

Well, I'm only using Islington as an example because it (and to some extent Kipling) is the major gateway Peel Regioners use to get into Toronto, and not just to the downtown. Transit should attempt to cater to as many traveller niches as possible, meaning neither the potential subway nor commuter rail crowds are expendible. Extending the subway while the cost to do subway expansions is still relatively feasible is a good long-term investment, which people fifty years from now will commend the TTC and the governing bodies for.

The subway wouldn't duplicate the Hurontario LRT so much as it would compliment it. Ditto the Dundas BRT/LRT. Look at it this way, we'd simply be taking the Milton ROW but adding in a few more intermediate stations (Honeydale, Sherway Gardens, Cawthra) before following its own ROW into MCC (with stops at Central Pkwy and Burnhamthrope en route). As such we'd be mitigating many of the concerns of reducing travel times for long-haul commuters throughout Peel. Dundas/Cawthra could become a major interchange point saving riders 20 minutes from not having to travel all the way to Kipling in order to access the subway. By contrast, the subway would traverse the same distance in under eight, savings of over 12 mins.

Another big issue that's been raised in a related thread is whether to divert the Hurontario/Main LRT off of Hwy 10 for a 1.6km spell to servce CCTT directly as customers will not appreciate some arbitrary trasnfer point from Robert Speck inwards. Well a subway/LRT interchange near Hillcrest/Hurontario again creates an alternative place with which to intercept passenger loads and alleviate the demands being placed on CCTT; and keeping the LRT line on Hwy 10 reduces layover times. These are just some of the ways in which extending the subway would prop up Mississauga's transit grid and make commuting across 905 West far less complicated for the very transit-conscious population.

Unimaginative and CC have brought up valid points that REX would be superior to the existing GO train in terms of frequency and fare schema; and that Mississauga is capable of handling multiple transit modes of service. I just hope that the concept of subway expansion doesn't get lost in the process of trying to implement perceived cheaper alternatives though, when the growing population's transit dependency may call for subways inevitably regardless.

 

[jks]

A station at Sherway would immensly simplify some bus routes though. Namely the East Mall and the West Mall bus, which could run from sherway. And the Ariport Express could go from there, with more direct acess to the 427

 

[Dan416]

Bloor Street provides a more direct route to Square One and is already well-populated. No one really lives on Dundas right now. Dundas can have its LRT. The subway can stay on Bloor. And the Milton line can be diverted to MCC with hourly trains.

 

[khris]

Subway on Bloor makes no sense to me. A lot of Dundas can be redeveloped, where Bloor would be much harder to do. You can't just kick people out of their houses to build subway stations, and intensify with condos.

 

[RedRocket191]

Subway on Bloor makes no sense to me. A lot of Dundas can be redeveloped, where Bloor would be much harder to do. You can't just kick people out of their houses to build subway stations, and intensify with condos.

If you buy them at market rate then you can. It's not kicking someone out if they agree to sell...

 

[doady]

If you buy them at market rate then you can. It's not kicking someone out if they agree to sell...

But why do that when there is already corridor to the south that is going to be and is being redeveloped anyway? And even without redevelopment, Dundas is already a busier transit corridor than Bloor.

This is why extending the subway to Square One makes no sense. Dundas unquestionably has a higher volume transit riders and unquestionably will be much easier to redevelop. It makes more sense to extend the subway to Hurontario and Dundas instead.

As Hipster Duck correctly pointed out, Mississauga is a very decentralized city. And a grid-based transit system is no doubt the best type of system for any decentralized city.

 

[Amphibius]

Any Mississauga subway extension is fully capable of serving BOTH the Dundas-Hurontario area and the City Centre at the same time.

Bloor Street provides a more direct route to Square One and is already well-populated. No one really lives on Dundas right now. Dundas can have its LRT. The subway can stay on Bloor. And the Milton line can be diverted to MCC with hourly trains.

Okay, now I'm really confused. I thought LRTs were favourable over subways for corridors such as Bloor Street with a high population density as the station stops would have to be more closely spaced (every 300-400m)? The built-up form along Bloor Street also is pretty much in stasis unless countless residential properties were to be razed. Dundas lacks any such complications whilst offering the quicker Point A-Point B rapid service that riders boarding from MCC will appreciate. Seeing as modern-day subway building standards are typically spacings a kilometre apart or greater (due to financial constraints); one can infer that Dundas is the better candidate as the corridor has greater redevelopment potential which can be focused around station locations e.g. Dixie and Cawthra.

Lastly, how could we divert Milton trains into MCC without totally reconfiguring Cooksville GO Stn and burrowing a long tunnel with hairpin turns (underneath where exactly?) linking up the two points? It would result in a longer underground segment than the Hamilton tunnel and even that is limited to only seven trips per day due to diesel smog build-up in the tunnel affecting riders' health. It would appear therefore that allowing GO passengers to switch onto the subway from Cooksville might be the better alternative.