Subway To Mississauga: Routing

[scarberiankhatru]

Sherway would generate more riders than almost any number of existing high-rises along Bloor or potential ones along Dundas...skipping Sherway would be a huge mistake.

 

[EnviroTO]

But why do that when there is already corridor to the south that is going to be and is being redeveloped anyway? And even without redevelopment, Dundas is already a busier transit corridor than Bloor.

By the time the Bloor line gets extended to Mississauga there will already be an existing Dundas and Hurontario LRT. The question is whether or not it makes sense to duplicate a path roughly equal to an existing LRT and GO line on one segment and an LRT on the other, OR to get to MCC in the most direct routing possible providing relief to the existing LRTs by removing users who would take the Dundas LRT and transfer to the Hurontario LRT.

With all the LRTs that are going to be built the routes of future subways will be more about relieving existing routes and providing new more direct routings rather than replacing and duplicating these LRT lines.

 

[nfitz]

With all the LRTs that are going to be built the routes of future subways will be more about relieving existing routes and providing new more direct routings rather than replacing and duplicating these LRT lines.

Indeed!

 

[doady]

By the time the Bloor line gets extended to Mississauga there will already be an existing Dundas and Hurontario LRT. The question is whether or not it makes sense to duplicate a path roughly equal to an existing LRT and GO line on one segment and an LRT on the other, OR to get to MCC in the most direct routing possible providing relief to the existing LRTs by removing users who would take the Dundas LRT and transfer to the Hurontario LRT.

With all the LRTs that are going to be built the routes of future subways will be more about relieving existing routes and providing new more direct routings rather than replacing and duplicating these LRT lines.

Why would either the Dundas or Hurontario LRTs need relief? Why would you build a subway to remove users from Dundas or Hurontario, especially with the Milton Line already there? Doesn't make sense to me.

The only reason to extend the subway in Mississauga would be to replace surface transit along Dundas altogether.

And since the Bloor-Danforth line does not serve the main part of downtown Toronto anyways, I don't really see why it should serve MCC either. Direct subway extension to Square One is pointless.

 

[Amphibius]

I'm sorry but, what? If the subway doesn't eventually connect directly to Mississauga City Centre, then there is no point and we may as well just terminate the extension at Sherway. I think the one subway line could alleviate the Dundas-Hurontario-Cooksville area while also serving Square One. It shouldn't be either/or, and skipping MCC/CCTT would definitely be the missing link within our transit grid network, like if Toronto had overlooked Union Stn, the same level of relevancy and status is at play here.

 

[doady]

I'm sorry but, what? If the subway doesn't eventually connect directly to Mississauga City Centre, then there is no point and we may as well just terminate the extension at Sherway. I think the one subway line could alleviate the Dundas-Hurontario-Cooksville area while also serving Square One. It shouldn't be either/or, and skipping MCC/CCTT would definitely be the missing link within our transit grid network, like if Toronto had overlooked Union Stn, the same level of relevancy and status is at play here.

Are you suggesting that Union Station is important station for the TTC? Because the ridership stats say otherwise. Only around 11% to 12% of YUS line riders use Union Station.

So a Dundas line would not serve Square One... so what? If a subway connect to Square One was so important, then why does MT route 26 have lower ridership than both route 1 and 19?

Average Weekday Boardings, 2006

19 Hurontario - 23,189
202 Hurontario Express - 1,933

1 Dundas - 15,746
201 Dundas Express - 2,498

26 Burnhamthorpe - 11,860
206 Burnhamthorpe Express - 2,197

Dundas is where the ridership is. It overlaps more with the Milton line than the other east-west bus routes but it still has the highest ridership.

Technically, a Dundas LRT or subway line would still directly connect two urban growth centres, MCC and Etobicoke Centre, which not a single proposed Transit City line does. In fact, the entire Transit City plan will only serve one UBC: Yonge-Eglinton Centre. In comparison, a Hurontario LRT and a Dundas LRT/subway together will connect three UBCs. What's the missing link?

 

[EnviroTO]

Why would either the Dundas or Hurontario LRTs need relief?

Is that a trick question? When the routes get full they may need relief. That is like asking why would the Yonge and Bloor lines require relief. When they were built they didn't require relief but that doesn't mean that forever they don't need relief. Some day the Dundas LRT and Hurontario may require relief much like the Yonge and Bloor lines are starting to.

The option in the future for Mississauga will be much as it is now in downtown Toronto... does it make more sense to relieve the Yonge line by making another tunnel following the Yonge line or does it make more sense to create a new route thus serving new station areas and creating new connections that could be quicker for some riders.

Why would you build a subway to remove users from Dundas or Hurontario, especially with the Milton Line already there?

The Milton line doesn't go to MCC or Bloor and Dixie.

 

[khris]

People seem to only look at the ridership that currently exists when thinking of what to build for the future. You have to look at where ridership could potentially increase also.

 

[RedRocket191]

People seem to only look at the ridership that currently exists when thinking of what to build for the future. You have to look at where ridership could potentially increase also.

And also beyond the location of Urban Growth Centres...

 

[howl]

I'm not sure extending the subway is a good idea. I think Mississauga would be better served by all-day GO Transit service to Cooksville and Port Credit and have those two hubs linked to the local rapid transit network. If I was in MCC and I wanted to get to King and Bay it would probably be quicker to grab an LRT down Hurontario to Cooksville, jump on a GO train to Union and then walk through the PATH to my destination rather than getting on the subway at MCC and sitting there through 30 stops before transferring to the University line down to St.Andrew. Of course it depends where you are coming from and where you are going to but I suspect the majority of trips would be shorter timewise using a hub and spoke system rather than a very long linear system.

 

[doady]

Exactly, a combination of LRT plus GO would be much faster, and at the same time much more efficient. And don't forget about the Transitway also.

Is that a trick question? When the routes get full they may need relief. That is like asking why would the Yonge and Bloor lines require relief. When they were built they didn't require relief but that doesn't mean that forever they don't need relief. Some day the Dundas LRT and Hurontario may require relief much like the Yonge and Bloor lines are starting to.

LRT is not the ultimate form of rapid transit. If the Hurontario or Dundas LRT ever become overcrowded, then they should each be replaced with a subway line. Hurontario and Dundas corridors should have highest ridership possible before a relief line is considered.

People seem to only look at the ridership that currently exists when thinking of what to build for the future. You have to look at where ridership could potentially increase also.

Exactly. And Dundas has the most ridership potential, doesn't it? A direct subway to MCC would be going through residential neighbourhoods with little redevelopment potential. But the Dundas corridor has the most potential in Mississauga, no doubt about it.

 

[Dan416]

I'm not sure extending the subway is a good idea. I think Mississauga would be better served by all-day GO Transit service to Cooksville and Port Credit and have those two hubs linked to the local rapid transit network. If I was in MCC and I wanted to get to King and Bay it would probably be quicker to grab an LRT down Hurontario to Cooksville, jump on a GO train to Union and then walk through the PATH to my destination rather than getting on the subway at MCC and sitting there through 30 stops before transferring to the University line down to St.Andrew. Of course it depends where you are coming from and where you are going to but I suspect the majority of trips would be shorter timewise using a hub and spoke system rather than a very long linear system.

Why does everyone assume Mississaugans want to go to King & Bay? The ones who do, they ALREADY take GO transit. GO runs all day, in both directions currently. Buses off-peak, but it's still possible. I do it all the time. I very rarely take the train. These buses are well used, and a train IS needed.

But this doesn't preclude the need for a subway to MCC. If it did, the 1 Dundas, 3 Bloor, 20 Rathburn, 26 Burnhamthorpe, 79 Burnhamthorpe, 201 Dundas Express, they would all have a lot less riders than they do today. People WANT to go to the subway. They have many destinations. How many office workers actually take the TTC from Kipling anyway? Probably not that many. Those office workers already take GO.

 

[drum118]

If one rides MT 1 from end to end as well drive it, Dundas has the greatest redeveloped out look that will out striping both Hurontario and MCC for population and density that will support a subway. The land east of Dixie is crying for redeveloped now with many open space.

If one spend time looking at the pattern flow of riders, you will see high numbers going west to Hurontario, then north to Sq One from Dundas.

Both Bloor and Burnhamthorpe cannot support a subway as is unless you total redeveloped those roads for higher density as the area on either side of them is very low density. That a 30-75 year project.

 

[Amphibius]

Are you suggesting that Union Station is important station for the TTC? Because the ridership stats say otherwise. Only around 11% to 12% of YUS line riders use Union Station.

So a Dundas line would not serve Square One... so what? If a subway connect to Square One was so important, then why does MT route 26 have lower ridership than both route 1 and 19?

Average Weekday Boardings, 2006

19 Hurontario - 23,189
202 Hurontario Express - 1,933

1 Dundas - 15,746
201 Dundas Express - 2,498

26 Burnhamthorpe - 11,860
206 Burnhamthorpe Express - 2,197

You're placing far too much emphasis on a direct Dundas-Hurontario connection than is even warranted (if land use in the immediate area's any indication). Any B-D extension to Square One approaching from the southeast will intercept both corridors, but it doesn't have to occur at the exact same spot. If people are capable of transferring onto the Hurontario LRT from Dundas in order to get to Square One, well over 2 kilometres to the north, why wouldn't they be able to ride it from Hillcrest-Cooksville GO down to Dundas Street, merely one LRT stop to the south?

You mentioned the 19 bus yet fail to acknowledge that it's at CCTT where the major onload/offload interchange for that bus route occurs. I've witnessed many people during AM Rush disembark the 202 bus they're on at Eglinton to await a 19 bus just for the sole purpose of directly accessing the Square One hub. I think further analysis of the multitudes of bus routes from the four corners of Mississauga which funnel directly into CCTT is a better way of grasping just how significant Square One is to any talk of future subway expansion:

Average Weekday Boardings, 2006
City Centre Transit Terminal Square One

3, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 18, 19, 19A, 20, 26, 28, 34, 53, 61, 61A, 66, 67, 68, 76(206), 110 - 80,189

A Dundas terminus by contrast could only originate bus trips along Dundas itself, The Queensway and Mavis (via Hillcrest). This places the brunt of the interconnector tasking on the Hwy 10 LRT, which is not its intended purpose nor function.

Dundas is where the ridership is. It overlaps more with the Milton line than the other east-west bus routes but it still has the highest ridership.

Technically, a Dundas LRT or subway line would still directly connect two urban growth centres, MCC and Etobicoke Centre, which not a single proposed Transit City line does. In fact, the entire Transit City plan will only serve one UBC: Yonge-Eglinton Centre. In comparison, a Hurontario LRT and a Dundas LRT/subway together will connect three UBCs. What's the missing link?

The missing link is MCC. No one will think it convenient to endure an almost 3km gap in-between Dundas-Hurontario and CCTT when the subway can offer near direct connections to both. The subway could always run parallel to Dundas for the approach as well; so transfer interface between it and the 1/1C/201 buses would be relatively direct (following the RTES recommended alignment). This links up a string of potential UBC nodes in the process (Cloverdale, Sherway-Alderwood, Dixie-Dundas, greater Cooksville area and MCC). Meanwhile the Hurontario LRT becomes a standalone rapid service whereby seats aren't being taken up unnecessarily by customers only travelling as far as Cooksville to/from Square One.

 

[khris]

Why does everyone assume Mississaugans want to go to King & Bay? The ones who do, they ALREADY take GO transit. GO runs all day, in both directions currently. Buses off-peak, but it's still possible. I do it all the time. I very rarely take the train. These buses are well used, and a train IS needed.

I don't get that either. It's always assumed that Mississauga wants a subway, so they can sit on a subway train for 40-45 mins. If we had a subway here, I'd use it for getting to Dixie and other areas in Mississauga, or Etobicoke, not downtown.