Subway To Mississauga: Routing

[EnviroTO]

LRT is not the ultimate form of rapid transit. If the Hurontario or Dundas LRT ever become overcrowded, then they should each be replaced with a subway line. Hurontario and Dundas corridors should have highest ridership possible before a relief line is considered.

It would depend on where the services were overloaded and how many of the riders on the Hurontario LRT and Dundas LRT were riders who transfer. If the Dundas LRT was only overloaded between Hurontario and Kipling or if the Hurontario LRT was only overloaded between Dundas and MCC and the majority of passengers on the Dundas LRT transfer to the Hurontario LRT it really wouldn't justify converting all of Hurontario and all of Dundas to a subway and forcing the transfer.

 

[CDL.TO]

I don't get that either. It's always assumed that Mississauga wants a subway, so they can sit on a subway train for 40-45 mins. If we had a subway here, I'd use it for getting to Dixie and other areas in Mississauga, or Etobicoke, not downtown.

And why do you think upgrading GO precludes local trips to Dixie or Etobicoke? Rather than riding a bus from MCC or Cooksville to Kipling to change to the subway, you could ride a faster, more comfortable train. Wouldn't that be preferable?

The difference between GO today and what people propose to upgrade GO to is like the difference between a streetcar and a subway.

Let's frame this differently. Build a subway line from MCC to Kipling. Easy to envision, right? Now once that subway train reaches Kipling, rather than continuing on the Bloor subway line, it continues on the GO line to downtown stopping at Dundas West, plus perhaps at Queen Street and in the Junction. Pretty simple: The subway exists as people want, and an express train exists as well, replacing the hundreds of GO bus trips each and every day. All it needs is slightly different trains and new fare rules. Want to get to Etobicoke? Change at Kipling. Want to get to UofT? Change at Dundas West. Want to get downtown? Stay on the train. Serves local trips AND downtown trips, and doesn't overload the Bloor-Danforth line.

This is the way it is done in practically any other city in the world with a well-developed transit system.

 

[doady]

You're placing far too much emphasis on a direct Dundas-Hurontario connection than is even warranted (if land use in the immediate area's any indication). Any B-D extension to Square One approaching from the southeast will intercept both corridors, but it doesn't have to occur at the exact same spot. If people are capable of transferring onto the Hurontario LRT from Dundas in order to get to Square One, well over 2 kilometres to the north, why wouldn't they be able to ride it from Hillcrest-Cooksville GO down to Dundas Street, merely one LRT stop to the south?

You mentioned the 19 bus yet fail to acknowledge that it's at CCTT where the major onload/offload interchange for that bus route occurs. I've witnessed many people during AM Rush disembark the 202 bus they're on at Eglinton to await a 19 bus just for the sole purpose of directly accessing the Square One hub. I think further analysis of the multitudes of bus routes from the four corners of Mississauga which funnel directly into CCTT is a better way of grasping just how significant Square One is to any talk of future subway expansion:

Average Weekday Boardings, 2006
City Centre Transit Terminal Square One

3, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 18, 19, 19A, 20, 26, 28, 34, 53, 61, 61A, 66, 67, 68, 76(206), 110 - 80,189

Are you serious? You saying that there are 80,189 average weekday boardings at Square One?

Just because the routes serve Square One doesn't mean that all the riders embark and disembark at Square One (which is physically impossible). And just because riders embark and disembark at Square One doesn't mean they are going to Toronto.

In reality, there are only 20,000 boardings at Square One per weekday. Islington sees around 15,000. The amount of people traveling between Sqaure One and Islington must be lower than these numbers.

The fact is, the 206 Burnhamthorpe Express was the fastest and most direct route to the subway from Square One, yet it had lower ridership than 201 Dundas Express.

And as I explained in the LRT thread, even the Hurontario LRT should not serve the Square One terminal, let alone the subway.

 

[Amphibius]

Are you serious? You saying that there are 80,189 average weekday boardings at Square One?

Just because the routes serve Square One doesn't mean that all the riders embark and disembark at Square One (which is physically impossible). And just because riders embark and disembark at Square One doesn't mean they are going to Toronto.

In reality, there are only 20,000 boardings at Square One per weekday. Islington sees around 15,000. The amount of people traveling between Sqaure One and Islington must be lower than these numbers.

The fact is, the 206 Burnhamthorpe Express was the fastest and most direct route to the subway from Square One, yet it had lower ridership than 201 Dundas Express.

And as I explained in the LRT thread, even the Hurontario LRT should not serve the Square One terminal, let alone the subway.

The LRT would not have to directly serve CCTT at all if the subway were to take on that function itself. Customers could transfer in-between the modes at a Hurontario Stn subway stop then embark onwards for the City Centre. The whole point of me listing out all those MT bus connections (plus GO Transit Routes: 19, 21/B/C, 29, 45, 46, 47) is to demonstrate just how much an inconvenience it'd be for customers to have to shuttle back and forth in-between CCTT and where you'd pigeonhole the subway terminus in at Dundas-Hurontario, over two and a half kilometres to the southeast.

As for the math, I think I got that right too.

You never broke down the ppd figure for each bus route into what approximate total daily boardings at Dundas-Hurontario would be like either. You merely contrasted the Dundas routes to Burnhamthrope's which alone would not provide a full picture of what commuters' travel patterns are really like. If Dundas routes combined (1/1C/201) offer headways of every 2 minutes or near subway frequency level of service, then of course there will be more incentive for customers to transfer at that corridor rather than to laywait 26/76 buses which each only operate every 13-14 minutes and incur several more intermediate stops due to B'thrope's higher population density.

Also, the majority of bus feeder traffic at Islington is originating from Mississauga in a ratio of 2:1. Hard to argue that a significant percentage of Mississauga residents whom utilize the transit hub(s) aren't Toronto-bound customers, and vice-versa during reverse peak. Of Islington's 42,080 daily boardings, it can be broken down as follows:

Inbounds towards Islington

• Mississauga Transit = 61%
  1, 1C, 3, 11, 11A, 17, 20,26, 50, 57, 70, 82, 82A, 89, 201, 206, 230 - 25,581
• Toronto Transit Commission = 31%
  37, 50, 110 - 13,100
• Local walk-in traffic = 8%
  3,399

Similarly, inbound commutes towards Square One see over 40,000 riders interchanging at CCTT daily. The area in of itself is also a major trip generator, beyond the scope of just the mall. So to summarize; Square One/MCC exceeds the mimimum requirement for subway/HRT transit upgrade, as presently it generates trips of greater than 2500pphpd. It'd be irresponsible of urban planners to overlook such an obvious detail, among several other variables to consider towards terminating the B-D subway line at this focally concentrated location vs. just to Cooksville, which any subway routing to MCC would pass through regardless.

 

[unimaginative2]

Lastly, how could we divert Milton trains into MCC without totally reconfiguring Cooksville GO Stn and burrowing a long tunnel with hairpin turns (underneath where exactly?) linking up the two points? It would result in a longer underground segment than the Hamilton tunnel and even that is limited to only seven trips per day due to diesel smog build-up in the tunnel affecting riders' health. It would appear therefore that allowing GO passengers to switch onto the subway from Cooksville might be the better alternative.

Obviously any proper regional rail route would be electrified, especially if it had a significant underground segment. We're not talking about six diesel-hauled bilevel trains a day here. We're talking about a subway-frequency service, operated with multiple unit trains that happen to have more comfortable seating suited to long distance travelers.

The tunnel is hardly an issue at all. Any curves would simply be built to normal radius standards. You know, even though most subway tunnels in Toronto are built under roads, that's not the case in most of the world. A tunnel can be bored under anything. It doesn't care what's on the surface. If it's cheaper, it might make sense to turn north just east of Hurontario and cut and cover under the street and under the Square One parking lot. It could even be a bi-level tunnel with GO below and the Hurontario LRT above, sort of like the Muni Metro and BART tunnel in San Francisco. That could improve connections and speed up the LRT in its busiest segment.

Obviously Cooksville station would have to be re-located by a block or two, but so what? The station's only there because it happens to be where the existing line meets Hurontario. A stop a couple blocks north on Hurontario would offer just as good a connection to the Hurontario LRT and would be closer to the big cluster of condos. An additional station would be built right at Square One to connect with the developments there and the transit terminal. The new Erindale station could connect directly with the 403 Transitway.

 

[doady]

Cooksville is a major node in Mississauga, the largest outside of MCC. Any relocation of the GO station would be highly detrimental... that is why diverting the Milton line is not a good idea.

 

[doady]

The LRT would not have to directly serve CCTT at all if the subway were to take on that function itself. Customers could transfer in-between the modes at a Hurontario Stn subway stop then embark onwards for the City Centre. The whole point of me listing out all those MT bus connections (plus GO Transit Routes: 19, 21/B/C, 29, 45, 46, 47) is to demonstrate just how much an inconvenience it'd be for customers to have to shuttle back and forth in-between CCTT and where you'd pigeonhole the subway terminus in at Dundas-Hurontario, over two and a half kilometres to the southeast.

First of all, you assume many people at CCTT travel to the subway, which is clearly not true at all.

Second of all, there are ALREADY many people travelling between Hurontario/Dundas and the CCTT. In fact, this is the busiest transit route in the city, not CCTT to Islington.

You never broke down the ppd figure for each bus route into what approximate total daily boardings at Dundas-Hurontario would be like either. You merely contrasted the Dundas routes to Burnhamthrope's which alone would not provide a full picture of what commuters' travel patterns are really like. If Dundas routes combined (1/1C/201) offer headways of every 2 minutes or near subway frequency level of service, then of course there will be more incentive for customers to transfer at that corridor rather than to laywait 26/76 buses which each only operate every 13-14 minutes

Frequency has nothing to do with it. People at Square One are not going to take route 1 instead just because it has higher frequency. That is just a ridiculous suggestion.

Besides, the combined peak frequency of Dundas (4 to 6 minutes) was not much different from Burnhamthorpe (6 to 7 minutes).

I repeat: the 206 was by far the fastest AND most direct route to the subway from CCTT, and it had lower ridership than the 201.

B'thrope's higher population density.

Burnhamthorpe does not have higher population density than Dundas. Population density alone is not important anyways. Subways should be built in mixed-use areas, not residential areas.

Also, the majority of bus feeder traffic at Islington is originating from Mississauga in a ratio of 2:1. Hard to argue that a significant percentage of Mississauga residents whom utilize the transit hub(s) aren't Toronto-bound customers, and vice-versa during reverse peak. Of Islington's 42,080 daily boardings, it can be broken down as follows:

Inbounds towards Islington

• Mississauga Transit = 61%
  1, 1C, 3, 11, 11A, 17, 20,26, 50, 57, 70, 82, 82A, 89, 201, 206, 230 - 25,581
• Toronto Transit Commission = 31%
  37, 50, 110 - 13,100
• Local walk-in traffic = 8%
  3,399

Similarly, inbound commutes towards Square One see over 40,000 riders interchanging at CCTT daily.

C'mon, first you say 80,000+, now you say only 40,000, a far cry from 80,000, isn't it. MT claims 20,000. I will believe MT.

But it does not matter since the terminal is already at capacity, and the Transitway has not even been built yet! A subway connection here would just not be possible.

The area in of itself is also a major trip generator, beyond the scope of just the mall.

Besides the mall, there is nothing within walking distance of the terminal except parking lots, Playdium, and a few big box stores.

 

[Amphibius]

First of all, you assume many people at CCTT travel to the subway, which is clearly not true at all.

Second of all, there are ALREADY many people travelling between Hurontario/Dundas and the CCTT. In fact, this is the busiest transit route in the city, not CCTT to Islington.

I am tellng you that nearly one-quarter of all Bloor-Danforth trips originates from Mississauga commuters funneling in. And during reverse peak in the PM this is overstated by the high volume of people that disembark at Islington/Kipling Stns. Only a third of this traffic is destined for inner-Etobicoke, the vast majority are heading towards 905 West.

I don't know why you seem pleased with the fact that Hurontario's overloaded with so much short-distance tripper traffic. That to me indicates extending the subway to CCTT is desperately needed to ALLEVIATE this congested stretch of Hwy 10, and thus free up seats on the LRT for long-haul commuters coming in from a far. Why do you think more people would prefer a 10 minute LRT trip from Dundas-Hurontario up to Robert Speck then have to transfer inwards to CCTT when the subway can preform the same task directly in around 5 mins?

Frequency has nothing to do with it. People at Square One are not going to take route 1 instead just because it has higher frequency. That is just a ridiculous suggestion.

Sure they do. If people are on-board the 19 bus already and there's no 26/76 in sight, why would they bother to get off and wait? The poor scheduling of those route's are a testament to their lower usage. Besides, Dundas is a true crosstown corridor bringing in folks all the way from Ridgeway/South Commons/UTM, so of course there'll be more riders on-board.

Besides, the combined peak frequency of Dundas (4 to 6 minutes) was not much different from Burnhamthorpe (6 to 7 minutes).

During AM and PM peak hours (and even sometimes during mid-afternoon) it's commonplace to witness a 1 bus appear, then a minute or so later it's followed by a 201 or 1C. And because the area east of Cooksville is mixed commercial/industrial, the bus along Dundas makes less intermediate stops saving travel times.

I repeat: the 206 was by far the fastest AND most direct route to the subway from CCTT, and it had lower ridership than the 201.

And I just explained why.

Burnhamthorpe does not have higher population density than Dundas. Population density alone is not important anyways. Subways should be built in mixed-use areas, not residential areas.

That's why I voted for the RTES alignment. B'thrope requires too many mid-block stops to make such a routing speedy for long-haul commuters.

C'mon, first you say 80,000+, now you say only 40,000, a far cry from 80,000, isn't it. MT claims 20,000. I will believe MT.

80,000+ was the same as when you listed out the total numbers for the 19, 19A, 202, 201, 1, 1C, 26 and 206. I merely combined the total daily boardings for all the MT routes that converge at CCTT, obviously. So for the routes that begin at CCTT we can assume nearly half of all riders start or end their trips along those perspective routes at CCTT. In other words: half of 80,000. It may be marginally lower than that, but obviously the figure would remain substantially high if and when the subway connects there.

But it does not matter since the terminal is already at capacity, and the Transitway has not even been built yet! A subway connection here would just not be possible.

If CCTT isn't the epitome of a transit hub, then I don't know what is. In order for transit to be efficient and effective, systems and networks have to be as interconnected as possible. Just think: people riding the Hurontario LRT will desire a subway connection. People from the 403 Transitway will desire a direct subway connection. People from GO Transit buses will desire a direct subway connection. People from western 'Sauga whose MT buses only connect as far east as CCTT will again desire a direct subway connection. Local patrons/condo dwellers/office workers/municipal servants will all desire a direct subway connection. There is literally a dozen reasons why to make this vital link.

And capacity concerns? What better way is there to alleviate CCTT then to alter the present-day landscape of it? Several routes would be relocated to new terminals in eastern Mississauga and surface feeders needed to get around MCC would see ridership dips as subway converts opt to walk to/from stations instead. This frees up CCTT for the long-haul commuters (those from Malton, the industrial NE, Erin Mills, Streetsville, Meadowvale, % of Brampton/Oakville riders) to have direct accessibility to the greater region, with one transfer-free ride into the 416.

Besides the mall, there is nothing within walking distance of the terminal except parking lots, Playdium, and a few big box stores.

Any subway to CCTT could easy well incorporate a Burnhamthrope Stn en route. Depending on where exactly we'd situate it, places like Kariya Gt/City Centre Dr (centric to a lot of office buildings) and Duke of York (Living Arts Ctr, City Hall, condominiums) would be easy walking distance for most pedestrians.

Anyway, I still don't understand why you'd terminate the subway at Hurontario-Dundas, missing even Cooksville GO, when the MCC subway would make a stop in the vicinity? Hence facilitating not only the direct Hurontario LRT interchange but also alleviating that corridor's transit congestion by taking CCTT/MCC bound passengers off the LRT line and onto the subway.

 

[CDL.TO]

Cooksville is a major node in Mississauga, the largest outside of MCC. Any relocation of the GO station would be highly detrimental... that is why diverting the Milton line is not a good idea.

Even if the GO station is relocated to Dundas and Hurontario?

 

[Dan416]

Dundas and Burnhamthorpe are not good candidates for the subway. Dundas is too industrial. Burnhamthorpe is too low-density. Bloor has a great concentration of apartment buildings. Bring the transit to where the riders are! Bloor is right in between Burnhathorpe AND Dundas and would attract riderhship from both routes.

Stops would be: New Kipling, Martin Grove, East Mall, Renforth, Mill, Fieldgate, Dixie, Tomken, Cawthra, Central Parkway (I'd renamed it Kennedy), Hurontario, and last but not least, Mississauga Centre--Square One.

 

[drum118]

Dundas and Burnhamthorpe are not good candidates for the subway. Dundas is too industrial. Burnhamthorpe is too low-density. Bloor has a great concentration of apartment buildings. Bring the transit to where the riders are! Bloor is right in between Burnhathorpe AND Dundas and would attract riderhship from both routes.

Stops would be: New Kipling, Martin Grove, East Mall, Renforth, Mill, Fieldgate, Dixie, Tomken, Cawthra, Central Parkway (I'd renamed it Kennedy), Hurontario, and last but not least, Mississauga Centre--Square One.

Have you looked at Dundas this year or within the last 6 months or the past year????

No way will Bloor St support an subway unless you tear every single homes down. You are lucky to get 300 riders at peak time from Islington. You get 1.35 turnover of seats for the whole route.

Bloor St will be hard press to support a BRT let alone LRT. It has the 4th highest ridership at this time.

Dundas is to far for walk up riders as well Burnhamthorpe. North-South service is poor.

Block of major industrial including light have move out of this area. Even strip malls are having a big turn over.

This corridor can be redeveloped for light industrial (most building too old, out of date empty now), commercial, retail and residential that will out strip MCC 2 to 3 times if not more if done right from day one.

As to your stops, Running Brook out strip Tomken, Cawthra, Central Parkway now. There are other places where stops can be place that will out strip most of your locations sorry to say.

 

[adma]

Apartments or no, Bloor in Mississauga strikes me too much as a local version of, say, Cosburn or Mortimer relative to the Danforth...

 

[khris]

Ya, Bloor would not suit the subway at all.
Dundas or Burnhamthorpe would be best.

 

[Dan416]

Quite honestly, if anyone believes that BLOOR can't support a subway, then Dundas or Burnhamthorpe are dead in the water as well. ANY Mississauga east-west subway MUST divert trips from Bloor, Dundas, Rathburn AND Burnhamthorpe. There isn't enough ridership on ANY of those lines to justify a subway in and of themselves. You're deluding yourselves if you think Dundas ridership alone justifies anything more than BRT or LRT. No. For a subway, you're going to have to cannibalize ridership from every east-west line. That's what routes like Hurontario, Dixie, Cawthra and Tomken are for.

People go on and on and on about what a great job the TTC does with all its buses funneling to the Bloor-Danforth subway which add to its ridership. "Feeder buses". Do you think any subway in Mississauga would live without feeder buses? Even a Dundas line would need feeder buses. Bloor, as I stated before, has the advantage of being IN-BETWEEN two busy buses, 26 Burnhamthorpe and 1 Dundas. I doubt a route like Dundas has many walk-in riders. And even those would rather take a subway along Bloor than a bus on Dundas.

The vast majority of Mississaugans don't live on Dundas street, so they'd be getting there by other means. Bloor is closer to Square One. Dundas would require dipping too far to the south. Bloor is more direct. I admit Dundas would be my second choice. But if you're taking into considerating all of Mississauga, then Bloor would be better. There's a lot more of us Northeners these days then there were before. And a subway that reaches MCC faster is better for us.

 

[Amphibius]

Bloor is the least credible candidate for numerous reasons, beating out even Burhamthrope whose major flaw has more to do with its being too far north of the present line than its preformability. For one, Bloor has the lowest overall ridership of the three corridors:

• 1/1C Dundas, 201 Express= 18,236
• 26 Burnhamthrope, 76(206) Square One-Subway= 14,057
• 3 Bloor= 8,186

Bloor is far too limited. The postwar era bungalows lining Bloor throughout Etobicoke aren't going anywhere. Talk about an intensification non-starter. I don't see how apartment building residents along Bloor in Mississauga would be inconvenienced by taking feeder buses 5 minutes to the south to meet with a Dundas area stop. We have to remember that residential Eastern Mississauga is a very small area bounded by the QEW, Hurontario, 403 and Etobicoke Creek~ traversable within 15 minutes along Routes 5 and 8. While Lakeshore residents are better off using the 23 bus and GO train, this means trips heading northbound to Bloor will have fewer passengers than those going the opposite direction. So if Dundas is the last major destination of southbound trips already, why would we bother to delay commutes by having a lengthy, arbitrary stopover at Bloor St?

What we may scorn as mere sprawlly strip malls along Dundas East today, may be demolished to make way for future office towers and skyscraper condos. Whatever remains of the commercial strip may then be conglomerated into high-end indoor shopping malls and power centres. New entertainment venues and attractions are a distinct possibility. All this will not only generate and sustain ridership levels at individual stations but also make for greater cross-regional coverage. If we cast out a larger net we'll yield a higher catch. Dundas may not even require a LRT line if the alignemnt chosen compliements that corridor around four major N-S arteries (Hwy 427, Dixie, Cawthra, Hurontario), hence altering current travel patterns.

Lastly, in your prior post you mentioned 12 new subway stations for this extension. Isn't a dozen a bit much considering the majority of subway patronage outside of the innercity (and often within it too) stems from bus/RT feeder traffic and not walk-ins? That'd mean from Islington it'd take nearly one half-hour to get to CCTT, which is dually time- and cost-prohibitive. The rail-corridor alignment could preform the same task in around half that time as it'd only require 7-8 stops, and trigger urban growth its whole length yielding in higher per-station turnouts.

The vast majority of Mississaugans don't live on Dundas street, by today's standards, but that could all change somewhat down the road. If it does, Dundas' ability to interconnect the southern and western parts of the city more efficiently to the subway line than Bloor/Mississauga Valley ever can, will be appreciated by the greater number of citizens/transit users.