Subway Interlining ...

[BMO]

Both the Spadina and Yonge extension "DO" ""NOT"" Justify a ""Subway"" based on current numbers as well 2030.

If the yonge extension doesn't warrant subway extension why is everyone worried about the extra people it will bring to create backlogs at Bloor-yonge?...and I think the main reason behind a DRL is to take pressure off of bloor-yonge isn't it? so if yonge doesn't warrant an extension then i'm pretty sure the DRL isn't needed to relieve bloor-yonge, it might be needed for other reasons. Also I find it really surprising that nobody sees the merit of a spadina extension, i mean I live in Thornhill and i drive down highway 7 from yonge to kipling, and the most congested areas are around where the spadina extension would end, and even keele and jane are packed as well. Not to mention it has regional connections to two major highways. I personally think its better to build today in areas that are less dense that are planned to be very dense for tomorrow rather than let tomorrow come and then we can't build anything due to engineering issues or money. If anything the sheppard subway although it is a stubway (for now) has taught us that if you build it they will come. Sheppard has become way more dense since the subway was built. And no i don't support a subway all the way to newmarket or some other random field out there, but when you consider some of the attractions up in that area like vaughan mills or wonderland or collosus ( sorta lol) it is definitely not a subway to nowhere.

 

[nfitz]

The DRL will never get built, and even if it does get built, we're talking 25 years out.

That's what I thought until the passenger numbers relating to the Yonge subway extension came out. The more you look at it, the demand numbers are just impractical without the Queen/Union to Pape/Donlands (whether they put it) link also being built. And at the same time they've got the dilemna of how to get the Don Mills LRT to link to the Danforth subway, which most likely involves a tunnel. I expect that these two projects will converge (assuming that the Don Mills LRT and Yonge subway extension don't die), and we'll see a Queen/Untion to Pape/Donlands to at least Overlea subway (and once you've gone that far, it seems crazy not to simply terminate it a major interchange station at Don Mills/Eglinton, where the Eglinton RT and Don Mills LRT will all meet it.

And if the Eglinton RT ends up being grade-separated LRT or Skytrain, then I think that the added load that would put on the Yonge line will also push the need for the DRL. I'd be interested to see the TTC and Metrolinx estimates on the impacts of that!

 

[Rainforest]

That's what I thought until the passenger numbers relating to the Yonge subway extension came out. The more you look at it, the demand numbers are just impractical without the Queen/Union to Pape/Donlands (whether they put it) link also being built. And at the same time they've got the dilemna of how to get the Don Mills LRT to link to the Danforth subway, which most likely involves a tunnel. I expect that these two projects will converge (assuming that the Don Mills LRT and Yonge subway extension don't die), and we'll see a Queen/Untion to Pape/Donlands to at least Overlea subway (and once you've gone that far, it seems crazy not to simply terminate it a major interchange station at Don Mills/Eglinton, where the Eglinton RT and Don Mills LRT will all meet it.

Exactly - building that subway line will produce most benefits for the investment made: not just relieving Yonge / Bloor, but also greatly improving the transit east of downtown and in the East York.

Regarding the proposal to take Spadina line on its own into downtown and use the University tracks for interlining: actually, not a bad idea. It will be better than the current situation, and it will be cheaper than DRL. So, it can be considered a backup solution in case DRL does not come through. However, note that the "new Spadina + interlining" option will do nothing for East York (100% of investment would go into the area already well served by transit), and nothing to relief Yonge line between Bloor and Eglinton - this section might need help, too, after Eglinton Crosstown and Yonge North extension start bringing additional riders onto the Yonge line.

 

[Rainforest]

If the yonge extension doesn't warrant subway extension why is everyone worried about the extra people it will bring to create backlogs at Bloor-yonge?...and I think the main reason behind a DRL is to take pressure off of bloor-yonge isn't it? so if yonge doesn't warrant an extension then i'm pretty sure the DRL isn't needed to relieve bloor-yonge, it might be needed for other reasons.

Since Yonge / Bloor and the Yonge line south of Bloor are near capacity already, bringing even 10% more riders thanks to the Yonge North extension might push them beyond capacity. Plus, add riders transferring from Eglinton Crosstown.

DRL subway is needed regardless to what mode is selected for Yonge North; even if it was light rail, it could bring enough extra riders to create problems in the southern section.

 

[LowerBay]

Regarding the proposal to take Spadina line on its own into downtown and use the University tracks for interlining: actually, not a bad idea. It will be better than the current situation, and it will be cheaper than DRL. So, it can be considered a backup solution in case DRL does not come through. However, note that the "new Spadina + interlining" option will do nothing for East York (100% of investment would go into the area already well served by transit), and nothing to relief Yonge line between Bloor and Eglinton - this section might need help, too, after Eglinton Crosstown and Yonge North extension start bringing additional riders onto the Yonge line.

Yes, this is true. A successful Eglinton crosstown line combined with a Yonge extension to Richmond Hill will completely overwhelm the Yonge subway south of Eglinton.

However, a Spadina subway south of Bloor St. would mean that we could abandon the 510. Along Spadina Av., the subway could stop at a new station closer to Bloor as well as College, Dundas, Queen, King, and then Union. Then, we re-interline YU and BD. St. George will cease to be an interchange entirely and the Bloor-Yonge interchange and Yonge subway volumes would drop off enough to compensate for the increased volume coming in from the Eglinton crosstown line and Richmond Hill.

 

[Rainforest]

Yes, this is true. A successful Eglinton crosstown line combined with a Yonge extension to Richmond Hill will completely overwhelm the Yonge subway south of Eglinton.

However, a Spadina subway south of Bloor St. would mean that we could abandon the 510. Along Spadina Av., the subway could stop at a new station closer to Bloor as well as College, Dundas, Queen, King, and then Union. Then, we re-interline YU and BD. St. George will cease to be an interchange entirely and the Bloor-Yonge interchange and Yonge subway volumes would drop off enough to compensate for the increased volume coming in from the Eglinton crosstown line and Richmond Hill.

Unfortunately, this plan can't relief the section of Yonge subway between Eglinton and Bloor. South of Bloor - yes, we would get three high-capacity lines instead of two that exist today. The interchange activity at both St. George and Yonge / Bloor would drop significantly as well. But north of Bloor, this plan does not create any new capacity.

 

[Amphibius]

Yes, this is true. A successful Eglinton crosstown line combined with a Yonge extension to Richmond Hill will completely overwhelm the Yonge subway south of Eglinton.

However, a Spadina subway south of Bloor St. would mean that we could abandon the 510. Along Spadina Av., the subway could stop at a new station closer to Bloor as well as College, Dundas, Queen, King, and then Union. Then, we re-interline YU and BD. St. George will cease to be an interchange entirely and the Bloor-Yonge interchange and Yonge subway volumes would drop off enough to compensate for the increased volume coming in from the Eglinton crosstown line and Richmond Hill.

I like this idea. With it, we could serve Cityplace directly with a subway stop in its vicinity while at the same reserving the eventual DRL for a more northernly alignment (be it along King, Adelaide, Richmond and/or Queen Sts). As such I'd duplicate the number of stops of the University Line but distance them farther apart: Harbord-Willcocks, Chinatown-Kensington Mkt (N of Dundas), Queen West (S of Queen), Spadina-Front and Convention Centre. The Queen West stop could form a future interchange with the DRL and we wouldn't necessarily have to relocate the Spadina (YUS) Stn either, depending on track configurations in order to get across the B-D Line.

This could mark the resurrgency of true interlining within the Toronto system whereby every second or third train northbound from Union or southbound from Spadina operates down Spadina Ave and across Front/rail corridor. It's only a pity that these kinds of ideas come at a time when its financially unfeasible to even do minor extensions onto existing lines, let alone something this grandscale.

 

[threnody]

Breaking the S from YUS would only impose one transfer to get on YU, but the DRL imposes two transfer moves to get on YU. I would not support the split unless BD trains were once again interlined for a direct ride to YU (once both lines are fully automated).

If you're going from B-D to somewhere on Yonge not served by the DRL, then you just stay on B-D all the way to Yonge! All this whining over one transfer is pretty ridiculous. Do you know how many times people have to change trains in places like Seoul or London?

 

[Chuck]

So long as there is capacity on the trains and in the stations, transferring is really not that bad. I also think that running Spadina trains down a new Spadina Avenue subway line is a sideways step as Bloor riders only get a transferless ride downtown by stripping Spadina riders of the same privilege. In fact, it might even be a backwards step as the transfer would involve first a long walk to Spadina Station on the Bloor line, then an extra long wait for every other train to take you down University. This is much worse than any other transfer in the system. As many have already stated, this will do nothing to alleviate crowding between Bloor and Eglinton over on Yonge.

I'll say it again, the DRL truly is the most warranted new subway line for this city. It would alleviate crowding at B-Y station, and would alleviate crowding on the Yonge line by continuing north on Don Mills. Throw in some express tracks, and this could result in a 10 minute subway ride from Pape or Coxwell to the CDB and Ryerson. However, the latter is a pet project of mine and is highly unlikely to occur.

 

[LowerBay]

Most Spadina passengers would make their switch to YU at Union and backtrack a bit. The current YUS Spadina platform at Kendal Av. would be abandoned and the connection would be relocated south for a more convenient transfer to BD (for those wishing to make the switch at Bloor St to approach the northern end of the University line).

Everyone here forgets that the University subway IS the original DRL. By extending it north (because of low ridership brought on by segregation), we bastardized its original reason for being built. It was supposed to be dedicated 100% to the task of acting as a Bloor-Danforth downtown leg that would create 'around the horn' passenger movements to utilize all that spare northbound Yonge capacity in the AM peak (and reverse in the PM peak).

By splitting the lines, we ruined the whole system. Of course a full length DRL is better -- but that line would be over 4x as long and cost 3x as much as creating a 3rd N-S leg in the perfect spot. The 510 sucks and this plan would even let us do away with a streetcar on a ROW that, if it moved even just a little bit slower, would be backing up.

 

[gweed123]

One proposal (which I'll admit is far-fetched, and probably would create more hastle than it's worth), its creating a partial wye between Wellesley and Sherbourne stations. This would allow B-D trains (1 out of every X number) to be diverted through the downtown loop, then back onto the B-D line.

This would of course mean new track construction between Wellesley and Sherbourne stations, which would no doubt be quite expensive and somewhat disruptive. However, this would bypass Bloor-Yonge and avoid some of the transfers at St. George, creating in essence a poor man's DRL. I do realize that the timing would have to be worked out to see that trains from both lines on the YUS downtown mix in an effecient way.

I do realize that this idea is very far-fetched, however it may be worth examining as an interim solution if the DRL remains on the 25 year time horizon as it currently is in the Metrolinx RTP. Possibly use the funds that would be used for the Bloor-Yonge expansion on the Wellesley-Sherbourne wye instead?

 

[gweed123]

I would also like to point out that this does not necessarily have to be a permenant thing. Interlining could potentially only be used during AM and PM peak periods (ie when the most tranfers are occuring at Bloor-Yonge and St. George). Theoretically, half as many trains passing through Yonge station means half as many people boarding a train at Bloor station (during the AM peak period).

The only issue would be people waiting at downtown stations during the PM peak period. If you are transferring onto the B-D line, you really don't care what train comes next, you either hop on a B-D train directly or you take a YUS train and transfer like people do now. However, if you are waiting specifically for a YUS train, you may have to wait a train or two. The counter-argument to this is, with the projected 90 second headways, if you can't wait a minute and a half for a train, you probably are too impatient to take transit anyways...

 

[LowerBay]

Another idea is to build a parallel subway under Church Street, south of Bloor. I never understood the need for a full DRL. This could be a rush-hour only subway, and a connection to the subway from Sherbourne could be easily built.

 

[gweed123]

If they were going to put another subway east of Yonge but still in downtown, I would think Sherbourne or Parliament would be the better choice, that way the entire area south of Bloor from the Don Valley to Yonge street would be within a 5 minute walk of a subway. Connecting at either Sherbourne or Castle Frank stations (Castle Frank would be better, because it is less used, as the open land around it would make it easier to modify the station for the addition of a 2nd station underneath).

 

[LowerBay]

The reasoning behind a Church subway is to get the stops as close to Yonge as possible. Any further away and it's not as attractive. Building under Bay St. is impossible.