Subway Interlining ...

[gweed123]

Funny, that sounds a lot like the justification people are using as to why the Sheppard line can't yet be regarded as a complete failure... (the whole "development and usefullness will eventually come" rationale)

 

[299 bloor call control.]

An even more odd idea (in my opinion) is to spend $1 billion to retrofit Bloor-Yonge station when you could spend a little over $2 billion and build the DRL, but that's a different story...

Well there's no question that improvements need to be made to B-Y to improve the transfer, but that should be reevaluated after the DRL.

 

[gweed123]

Bloor-Yonge is like a fat guy in tight pants... We can either make him more comfortable by buying him bigger pants (expanding the capacity of the station, something we've already done once), or we can get him to lose weight (ie reduce the demand placed on the station, mainly through the DRL). One has a local and temporary benefit, the other has a more widespread benefit and is a better long-term investment...

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Funny, that sounds a lot like the justification people are using as to why the Sheppard line can't yet be regarded as a complete failure... (the whole "development and usefullness will eventually come" rationale)

And your point is...?

Development and ridership are already coming to Sheppard. In the foreseeable future, Sheppard between Downsview and STC will be an almost continuous strip of skyscrapers. It was useful on day 1 and is useful now - anyone who had previously rode the Sheppard bus from Don Mills to Yonge will tell you that. The failure was only building part of the line (not west of Yonge, not east of Don Mills, no Willowdale station). Do you really expect a 5km subway line to move like 200,000 people a day? Longer lines only have the ridership they do because every bus route in Christendom funnels into them.

 

[nfitz]

People here forget why University was built -- it was the DRL of the 1960s, and after the wye closed, most passengers stopped using the line.

Whether this be true or not, I'd take with a grain of salt, as most of your posts seems to get into some strange fetish on why it makes sense to re-open the wye - and as it makes no sense at all after the construction of the Spadina subway, then one has to question everything else you write that is anywhere close to this topic!

 

[LowerBay]

There was practically nothing along the University line back then, but it's integral and very well used today. No point in trying (and failing) to deny it. It's original purpose and historic conditions are totally irrelevent now.

It actually is relevant, because we changed how the system was designed to work and bastardized the University line in the process. If the system was kept integrated, there would be no need for a DRL at all right now. The only people changing at Bloor-Yonge would be those heading north or south to Dundas, College, and Wellesley stations -- everyone else would use the wye.

And, the Spadina subway would have followed an alignment down Christie/Grace to Queen. The passenger travel patterns that evolved at Bloor-Yonge came about because the lines were separated. From 1966 to 1969, the transfer volumes at B-Y increased so much that integration was again revisited but dropped. The reason why is was dropped again in 1969 was because they were too stubborn to abandon the alternating service pattern concept and implement dynamic terminal re-routing. That operating scheme would have eliminated all delays at the wye, but it required on-the-fly scheduling.

 

[LowerBay]

Whether this be true or not, I'd take with a grain of salt, as most of your posts seems to get into some strange fetish on why it makes sense to re-open the wye - and as it makes no sense at all after the construction of the Spadina subway, then one has to question everything else you right that is anywhere close to this topic!

Of course it's true -- the line was dead outside of rush hours until Spadina came along. How do I know? ... I was there.

Fetish? ... I'd look up the meaning of the word. A set of tracks and a platform is not going to get me aroused. One more thing ... it's "write" not "right".

 

[scarberiankhatru]

You're still pretending that there's nothing along University today, that the Spadina line doesn't exist, and that conditions in the 1960s matter even in the slightest now (they don't).

Ignoring the R in DRL, a downtown line is still needed. It's already been mentioned, but both Yonge and University are already full and interlining will do nothing to change that.

 

[Chuck]

People here forget why University was built -- it was the DRL of the 1960s...

The 401 was the Toronto bypass of the 1960s. Should we close all onramps between Oshawa and Mississauga so that it once again functions as the Toronto bypass?

...and after the wye closed, most passengers stopped using the line.

How is this comment relevant today? Regardless of what people did in the 1960s, the University Line is once again well used based on the existing setup.


The only other comment that I can add that hasn't been said numerous times before is that you have to stop living in the past. Toronto has changed a lot over the past 40 years. New subway lines have been built, the bulk of ridership on the TTC now originates in the suburbs, and the demands on the system are different. Lower Bay Station is a relic from the past. It is outdated, useless, and logistically impossible to reinstate.

 

[LowerBay]

A DRL is at least 25 years out -- what do you propose we do in the meantime?

We have trackage just sitting there that could be used in the busiest AM/PM peak hour. There's no need to re-activate Lower Bay. Just use the tracks through it from 8-9 and 5-6 to get some trains around Bloor-Yonge.

 

[Amphibius]

And your point is...?

Development and ridership are already coming to Sheppard. In the foreseeable future, Sheppard between Downsview and STC will be an almost continuous strip of skyscrapers. It was useful on day 1 and is useful now - anyone who had previously rode the Sheppard bus from Don Mills to Yonge will tell you that. The failure was only building part of the line (not west of Yonge, not east of Don Mills, no Willowdale station). Do you really expect a 5km subway line to move like 200,000 people a day? Longer lines only have the ridership they do because every bus route in Christendom funnels into them.

A few things. Willowdale Stn was excluded because of resident NIMBY opposition to it. Some bus routes that feed into other subways could theoretically have connected to the Sheppard Line but don't. If the 78/115/122 were amalgamated and fed into Leslie Stn; daily usage of that stop would probably still be low spectrum though. But most on point, large swaths of Sheppard will not become future condo sites, particularly Sheppard West.

I am still not entirely sold on extending any subway west of Yonge along this corridor. Finch West is where the potential Avenueization will most likely occur. What we should strive to do with the subway ROW now is find a way to interconnect Finch West/Sheppard East in an economical and customer satisfactory manner. Subways can play connect-the-dots sure, but there should at least be some intermediary benefit to invest so much capital on one line extension when the demands across the whole city need to be met.

If B-D naturally links to SCC, YUS to NYCC and GO Transit to Agincourt; the futility of Sheppard Subway becomes more and more apparent. It's like a "subway or nothing" mentality regarding Sheppard which I find amusing given the low usage of the line. And please don't tell me it's only because it's 6kms long. For me not to think HRT is overkill here I'd have to witness crushloads of people trying to board from Bayview-Bessarion-Leslie. If Sheppard can't command its own base without bus reroutes, why bother siphon away from other more deserving projects?

 

[BobBob]

For me not to think HRT is overkill here I'd have to witness crushloads of people trying to board from Bayview-Bessarion-Leslie.

This doesn't make any sense. If that were the case, extension of the line would cause even greater problems as you'd have all the same people crowding into those stations PLUS those who are bound for newly available destinations to the east, causing havoc and stampedes.

Extending the line would *increase* the number of people boarding at the stations you mention, not decrease it.

 

[GraphicMatt]

This thread is so weird. It has a 'Nobody lives downtown!' vibe to it. Toronto's subways are not simply commuter lines - building something that primarily serves those getting to work during rush hour on the Yonge line is short-sighted.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

A few things. Willowdale Stn was excluded because of resident NIMBY opposition to it. Some bus routes that feed into other subways could theoretically have connected to the Sheppard Line but don't. If the 78/115/122 were amalgamated and fed into Leslie Stn; daily usage of that stop would probably still be low spectrum though. But most on point, large swaths of Sheppard will not become future condo sites, particularly Sheppard West.

I am still not entirely sold on extending any subway west of Yonge along this corridor. Finch West is where the potential Avenueization will most likely occur. What we should strive to do with the subway ROW now is find a way to interconnect Finch West/Sheppard East in an economical and customer satisfactory manner. Subways can play connect-the-dots sure, but there should at least be some intermediary benefit to invest so much capital on one line extension when the demands across the whole city need to be met.

If B-D naturally links to SCC, YUS to NYCC and GO Transit to Agincourt; the futility of Sheppard Subway becomes more and more apparent. It's like a "subway or nothing" mentality regarding Sheppard which I find amusing given the low usage of the line. And please don't tell me it's only because it's 6kms long. For me not to think HRT is overkill here I'd have to witness crushloads of people trying to board from Bayview-Bessarion-Leslie. If Sheppard can't command its own base without bus reroutes, why bother siphon away from other more deserving projects?

None of this makes sense.

Virtually the entire population within walking distance of Bessarion takes the subway. Sheppard West is the first and only suburban corridor seeing real progress towards Avenueization...you're only talking about Finch West because I and others told you that the Sheppard subway, if ever extended past Downsview, should run along Finch West. Even the Yonge and Bloor/Danforth lines are dependent on feeder bus ridership, not walk-ins...they'd feel deserted if the buses stopped dumping in riders. A longer Sheppard line would intercept the Bathurst, Warden, etc., buses - no one is going to transfer multiple times to go out of their way to take a 5km subway line, and this would be true had 5km of subway been built anywhere, including Eglinton or Queen. Subway or nothing? Uh, you do realize there's already a subway on Sheppard, right?

 

[nfitz]

Of course it's true -- the line was dead outside of rush hours until Spadina came along. How do I know? ... I was there.

I wasn't questioning the passenger demand on the University line - I thought that was a matter of clear record - what with the early closings and all.

Fetish? ... I'd look up the meaning of the word.

I had actually!