Subway Interlining ...

[LowerBay]

Steve Munro doesn't support the Yonge extension to Richmond Hill, and he doesn't support a subway or ICTS along Eglinton -- I suggest you read his blog more carefully.

I am fairly certain his LRT lobbying has changed the policy directive at the TTC from subways to LRT. I don't want this to turn into a defend-Steve-Munro bash-Steve-Munro thread, but saying that he's not anti-subway is a stretch.

 

[LowerBay]

Reopening Lower Bay isn't a fantasy. Our subway system was never designed to operate in a separated way during rush hours, and, by having two major subway lines cross each other just north of downtown, we created a problem that now requires a DRL. If the TTC really didn't want integration, they should have approved the alternate Bloor subway that swung down to Queen at Christie.

 

[DSC]

Steve Munro doesn't support the Yonge extension to Richmond Hill, and he doesn't support a subway or ICTS along Eglinton -- I suggest you read his blog more carefully.

I am fairly certain his LRT lobbying has changed the policy directive at the TTC from subways to LRT. I don't want this to turn into a defend-Steve-Munro bash-Steve-Munro thread, but saying that he's not anti-subway is a stretch.

Steve can certainly defend himself but I think his (very sensible) view is that some routes need subways, some need streetcars/LRT and some need buses. There is only a limited amount of money available and it makes little sense to build the most expensive option (subway) just because it will, maybe, be needed in 30-50 years.

 

[Rainforest]

I don't think ridership on Spadina will be as high as you predict though, but here's another idea -- what if the Spadina line is disconnected from University and extended down Spadina Av., replacing the streetcar, before turning at Queen and terminating downtown somewhere? That frees up the University line and Lower Bay to serve their original purpose. And, we get an extra pair of tracks into the core that increase overall capacity at a fraction of the cost of a full DRL.

New tunnel under Spadina Ave would not be that cheap: 3 km, around 900 million?

The comparable part of DRL, Yonge to Bloor / Pape, would be around 5 km and 1,500 million, but would have an added benefit of bringing rapid transit to the currently under-serviced areas.

 

[LowerBay]

The problem with the DRL is it will impose two transfers instead of one for the majority of passengers heading downtown. Those two transfers could deter a lot of passengers from using it.

Even though the integrated system was slower by about 7 minutes on average (because trains would go into a hold and sequence pattern inside the wye triangle), the Toronto Star did a survey the week after it closed and their headline was "RIDERS WOULD RATHER SIT THAN SWITCH". I think that pretty much says it all. Now everyone is pushing a DRL that will force B-D passengers to switch once at Pape, and then again at Union (or Queen -- or wherever the heck it ties in). B-D riders have been shafted for over 40 years. Everyone else gets a direct ride downtown except us.

I actually agree that new routes like Finch and Jane should be LRT ... but when Steve Munro says that the Spadina and Yonge subway extensions should be LRT, as well as Eglinton, well, I'm sorry, but I just don't swallow that as sensible or objective LRT vs. subway reasoning. One size does not fit all. Finch is absolutely an LRT corridor, but Eglinton (due to its regional nature) IS NOT. Instead, if you head over to his blog, all you'll hear is LOCAL LOCAL LOCAL -- that local needs usurp the needs of long haulers in all cases, and that GO should somehow handle crosstown traffic through some cock-eyed crooked route of existing rail lines.

 

[drum118]

The problem with the DRL is it will impose two transfers instead of one for the majority of passengers heading downtown. Those two transfers could deter a lot of passengers from using it.

Even though the integrated system was slower by about 7 minutes on average (because trains would go into a hold and sequence pattern inside the wye triangle), the Toronto Star did a survey the week after it closed and their headline was "RIDERS WOULD RATHER SIT THAN SWITCH". I think that pretty much says it all. Now everyone is pushing a DRL that will force B-D passengers to switch once at Pape, and then again at Union (or Queen -- or wherever the heck it ties in). B-D riders have been shafted for over 40 years. Everyone else gets a direct ride downtown except us.

I actually agree that new routes like Finch and Jane should be LRT ... but when Steve Munro says that the Spadina and Yonge subway extensions should be LRT, as well as Eglinton, well, I'm sorry, but I just don't swallow that as sensible or objective LRT vs. subway reasoning. One size does not fit all. Finch is absolutely an LRT corridor, but Eglinton (due to its regional nature) IS NOT. Instead, if you head over to his blog, all you'll hear is LOCAL LOCAL LOCAL -- that local needs usurp the needs of long haulers in all cases, and that GO should somehow handle crosstown traffic through some cock-eyed crooked route of existing rail lines.

Both the Spadina and Yonge extension "DO" ""NOT"" Justify a ""Subway"" based on current numbers as well 2030.

I will let Steve defend his views and you should put your stand in his blog by backing up your statement.

I have done the numbers as well looked at development and other things to see when (if) the subway should be built as plan. The earliest for a Yonge extension is 2040-50 and that maybe pushing it. The Spadina is not require until 2070.

One only has to look at the development on York U land to the south to see low density that will only support LRT. Take a look at Keele and Steeles to see what there that will support a subway and that nothing. The City above the City will not have a real centre until 2040 and not as plan.

As one who does 3+ transfers for travel, it's find when you connect with 5 minutes service, but over 15 is the pits.

To do what you want for every rider is impossible as well very expensive as well a waste of resources.

Personally, I have no issue with an Eglinton Subway since it saw some building of it before Oh Mikiee said no. We need another east-west subway plus 2 more.

The Rail Corridors ""ARE"" the Main Spline for transit and therefore they need to become the main force, not like they are today.

Rider prefer to sit than switch depends on where they are going as well how long it takes to get then there in the first place. I want to get where I want to go as fast as possible and can deal with transfers. I know people who don't care how long it takes them so long they get there in the first place.

I use the BD and accept the transfer since starting to use it and it is no big deal.

 

[LowerBay]

Densities are irrelevant -- we don't need to turn Finch and Downsview into Kennedy station with artificial transfers to LRT. 2070? Nobody can predict what's going to be needed that far out. Do you have a crystal ball or something?

 

[Twisted Son of Gumby]

Rider prefer to sit than switch depends on where they are going as well how long it takes to get then there in the first place. I want to get where I want to go as fast as possible and can deal with transfers. I know people who don't care how long it takes them so long they get there in the first place.

I use the BD and accept the transfer since starting to use it and it is no big deal.

I've never understood peoples' objections to any extra transfer between rapid transit modes in order to travel to and from a destination in otherwise reasonable time. Maybe I'm a flaming pinhead, I don't know, but my point of view is if you don't want to take public transit to some place because you have to TRANSFER (omg!!) then maybe you're also too lazy to walk.

 

[LowerBay]

I'm going to show my age here, but I actually rode the integrated system in the summer of 1966 when I was a summer student. I used to take it north on University (from King) and then west on Bloor. When the system changed to separate routes, I was always forced to stand after the switch at St. George (whereas before I sat). The switch wasn't the problem -- it was losing the seat that irked me and a lot of other passengers.

Everyone keeps saying how the system didn't work. Well, if it didn't work, it wouldn't have operated for the full six month trial -- it would have been killed after the first week. My memory now of the entire operation is a bit hazy, but I clearly remember that there were no slowdowns inside the wye going down in the morning, but that the afternoon rush was sometimes ridiculous coming up, with 15 minute waits inside the wye. I never understood why the morning was fine and not the afternoon, but I suspect it had to do with the automatic control system at the wye being "reset" every morning at 6am -- ie., a fresh start.

 

[nfitz]

Steve Munro doesn't support the Yonge extension to Richmond Hill

Are you sure - I recall seeing a post he made a long time about the Spadina extension commenting that the only proposed extension that made any sense being subway was Yonge.

and he doesn't support a subway or ICTS along Eglinton -- I suggest you read his blog more carefully.

I'd suggest you read my post more carefully, as I never suggested othen that he supports anything but LRT along Eglinton.

I don't want this to turn into a defend-Steve-Munro bash-Steve-Munro thread, but saying that he's not anti-subway is a stretch.

I have it on good authority that he takes the subway virtually every day!

 

[taal]

Densities are irrelevant -- we don't need to turn Finch and Downsview into Kennedy station with artificial transfers to LRT. 2070? Nobody can predict what's going to be needed that far out. Do you have a crystal ball or something?

Nice post Drum ... I'm with you.

Regarding the comment above, ideally there would be a subway stop at my front door, and yours too

The $$$ can be well spent in many many more projects, it's as simple as that.

 

[LowerBay]

Actually, the subway does stop in front of my door. I wouldn't have it any other way!

 

[sjc]

One only has to look at the development on York U land to the south to see low density that will only support LRT. Take a look at Keele and Steeles to see what there that will support a subway and that nothing. The City above the City will not have a real centre until 2040 and not as plan.

What York Region lacks in density, it makes up for in area. While there might not be much in the way of city centres, that doesn't mean that there are not a lot of people that could be potential passengers on a subway. People living in Maple or Bolton would benefit from being able to get on the subway in Vaughan vs. Downsview.

Go Transit does serve many of these people for the purpose of commuting to downtown, but is much less useful for trips to pretty much anywhere else. Many people work in locations outside downtown -- and more and more are living in Toronto and working in York Region.

Because of the lack of density, I would recommend lots of parking at subway stations.

 

[Rainforest]

The problem with the DRL is it will impose two transfers instead of one for the majority of passengers heading downtown. Those two transfers could deter a lot of passengers from using it.

Many major downtown destinations are not located right at a station of the YUS line, and people don't mind to walk there.

Dependent on the routing of DRL, many destinations might be within walking distance from it. From that standpoint, King or Welligton would be the best route, as everything between Union to Queen would be within walking distance, either on surface or using the PATH walkways. Even if the DRL ends up running through Union or along Queen, a large enough group of riders will not need a transfer to YUS. Moreover, some destinations that are not at the YUS loop, will be actually closer to DRL than to YUS.

Btw, if, per your suggestion, the Spadina / Allen Rd subway is disconnected from St. George and extended down Spadina Ave. into downtown, riders of that line will be in the same position as DRL riders.

Finally, the function of DRL does not have to be limited to connecting Bloor / Danforth riders to downtown. If it is extended north-east to the Eglinton / Don Mills area, then passengers who reach that terminus either by bus or by LRT, will get downtown using DRL rather than Yonge or Bloor subways.

Speaking of which, DRL to Eglinton / Don Mills is a subway project that Steve Munro supports.

 

[LowerBay]

The DRL will never get built, and even if it does get built, we're talking 25 years out.

Breaking the S from YUS would only impose one transfer to get on YU, but the DRL imposes two transfer moves to get on YU. I would not support the split unless BD trains were once again interlined for a direct ride to YU (once both lines are fully automated).

Taking Spadina into the core on its own is probably the most cost-effective solution to building a full DRL -- capacity-wise that is. You have to remember that 70% of passengers from the Danforth DID NOT change trains at Bloor-Yonge in 1966 when integration was in effect. Instead, they took the wye through Bay Lower and around Union for a longer (although direct) ride. If that option was made available again, volumes at B-Y could drop by about 35% right off the bat.