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Subway Construction Costs

Leslie's one of those stations, like Wilson, where you just shake your head while walking (and walking and walking) through it. Downsview is ridiculously overbuilt as well, but it's rather attractive, in somewhat of a showcase location, and a terminus (even though not intended to be a 'this far, no farther' terminus like Finch). Downsview is cavernous...but imagine how stupid it'd be if the mezzanine extended over the entire platform *and* the stairs/washrooms/bus bays/sleeping, er, collector booths/etc. extended well beyond the platform.

There is a bit of 'can't have your cake and eat it too' regarding keeping all the structures within and above the platform because spaces that go well beyond the platform tend to improve the accessibility on the surface from a pedestrian's perspective. Bessarion, for instance, has two exits in the middle of the platform instead of one at each end, and does not minimize the distance to transit. Lawrence's staircases could have been shifted so that they reached the surface at the end of the platform and not a block away, but this would A) mean beginning both staircases in the middle of the platform and not at each end, which is not as ideal for crowd control or emergency egress and B) mean increasing the walking distance to the station, and even though the distance to the platform wouldn't change, people would feel like their trip is shorter if the distance between their front door and the place where they actually pay their fare is minimized. There is a C option, but having stairs do switchbacks is bad for circulation and requires so many escalators that the TTC budget would need to double due to repairmen. Of course, this only applies to very deep stations...but since the powers that be insist that everything be tunnelled, we're going to keep running into these problems. A shallow/trenched/at-grade/elevated station doesn't need to excavate out another 100m of cavern to fit stairs. That doesn't mean they don't build these tunnels, anyway, though.

We've been over this before. Most of Leslie station isn't underground. From Sheppard you have to walk UP to the Mezzanine level; let alone the bus platform on the level above that. In some other cities they wouldn't dream of building separate exits from the same single platform station that don't connect to each other without having through the platform level.

We've been over this and you're wrong. That entrance hut is also not a mezzanine and it doesn't sit on flat ground, so unless you want a sloping floor, you need some stairs somewhere. You must walk up to the southern entrance hut of York Mills station, too. That doesn't mean York Mills isn't underground.

I find the tunnel complaints interesting because a few years ago this board was all about how great MTR was for having a 6 to 8 exits/entrances for each station, how great the large tall ceilings were, etc.

Frankly, I think the new stations are pretty much perfect. They piss off the people who want to save their pennies and they piss of the people who want a grand station; compromise is only successful when everybody is unhappy.

With Leslie, you currently have 3 entrances on the same corner of Leslie & Sheppard, and a fourth will be built on the same corner when the Canadian Tire HQ is built. We want multiple entrances at each station, but not long tunnels to serve the same place. Spread the entrances around. Overbuild like Downsview, don't overbuild like Leslie. There's a difference, and the latter is a waste of money. Why take a nearly 100m tunnel all the way to Leslie and then not cross the street?

Tall ceilings are better than short ceilings, particularly when it means not filling the station back in with useless mezzanines, but why didn't the stubway cross the Don on a bridge instead of a raised tunnel? It's not like the bus terminal, the light wells, the substation, etc., are prepped for redevelopment or that the intersection is lined with stores and homes. The sky is a taller ceiling. Having transit run only in tunnels diminishes the riding experience...imagine the other lines without their outdoor segments, even - especially - the brief flashes.
 
With Leslie, you currently have 3 entrances on the same corner of Leslie & Sheppard, and a fourth will be built on the same corner when the Canadian Tire HQ is built. We want multiple entrances at each station, but not long tunnels to serve the same place. Spread the entrances around. Overbuild like Downsview, don't overbuild like Leslie. There's a difference, and the latter is a waste of money. Why take a nearly 100m tunnel all the way to Leslie and then not cross the street?
There is no 100-metre tunnel from the station to Leslie; it's a much shorter than that.

And how you can possibly describe the new entrance (that TTC isn't paying anything for) west of the train tracks as "the corner of Leslie and Sheppard" is beyond me; it's about a 1/4 mile from the corner of Leslie and Sheppard! Why you persit in trying to warp reality for the most subtle of points is beyond me.
 
There is no 100-metre tunnel from the station to Leslie; it's a much shorter than that.

And how you can possibly describe the new entrance (that TTC isn't paying anything for) west of the train tracks as "the corner of Leslie and Sheppard" is beyond me; it's about a 1/4 mile from the corner of Leslie and Sheppard! Why you persit in trying to warp reality for the most subtle of points is beyond me.

It's nearly 100m. It might be over 100m if you include the entire length that the station box was extended to permit this pointless tunnel.

All four entrances are on the same 'quadrant' corner. Nothing on the north side of Sheppard, nothing on the east side of Leslie. All these pathways and tunnels and none of them bother crossing the massive arterial roads to actually serve the neighbourhood. Is that beyond you as well?
 
Admittedly, after the Canadian Tire entrance is opened the original main entrance on Sheppard will be redundant since all pedestrians would walk by the other three entrances to get there. It isn't redundant right now though and the station box is the size it is because all the stations on the line were build to be easily converted to handle 6 car trains.
 
But aren't the huge stations of Sheppard and Spadina extension built large for fire safety and what not?? So, if Eglinton is being built with subway conversion in mind, shouldn't the stations be as big as well??
and also, Eglinton stations are gonna see a lot more patronage than Sheppard subway, so it would make sense to have large platform width right?? build it once, build it right!!

There was talk of building the Eglinton underground LRT to be easily convertible to a subway but they are not doing that according to the EA documents. If they were building the stations to be easily converted the elevators, stairs, and escalators would be built at a future subway platform height and ramps and stairs away from those access points would take you to LRT platform level.
 
Admittedly, after the Canadian Tire entrance is opened the original main entrance on Sheppard will be redundant since all pedestrians would walk by the other three entrances to get there. It isn't redundant right now though and the station box is the size it is because all the stations on the line were build to be easily converted to handle 6 car trains.

No, it's longer than it needs to be, even after 6-car trains are factored in. Why bother building it all the way to Leslie and then not cross Leslie? The Sheppard entrance - the main entrance - is comically devoid of users now, let alone after another entrance opens up.
 
An entrance on the other side of Leslie would be expensive to build considering the structure is over water an would require further re-inforcement, require widening of the bridge, and would require entrance elevation a couple of feet above the sidewalk to clear the floodplain. The cost of the corridor to the intersection entrance was cheap considering it is wedged between tracks in a shallow cut and cover section. The current main entrance is the entrance to serve the area zoned high density west of the Stouffville line. The construction of an entrance in the Canadian Tire building was obviously optional and the cost to the TTC buying a section of that property to build an entrance at the time would have been more expensive. If the Canadian Tire building did not build an entrance you must admit that the Canadian Tire office building in combination with high density developments that will eventually sit on the McDonalds and gas station site would make the main entrance heavily used and that the walk to other entrances would have been significant.
 
t's nearly 100m. It might be over 100m if you include the entire length that the station box was extended to permit this pointless tunnel.
There's no way it's 100 metres. I've frequently walked it. I'll pace it next time I'm in it. There is 45-metres of the station where the platform is walled off because they are running 4-car trains instead of 6-car trains. If you include that portion of the station, then it could be 100 metres to the exit ... but that certainly isn't a tunnel. The eastern entrance to Leslie has to be one of the simplest (and shallowest) entrances into the subway system in this city.

All four entrances are on the same 'quadrant' corner
No ... only one is on the corner. One is near the underpass. One is up top on Old Leslie. And one will be west of both Old Leslie and the CN tracks, a lot closer to Provost than Leslie.

Nothing on the north side of Sheppard, nothing on the east side of Leslie.
And nothing on the east side of Victoria Park, and nothing on the north side of Highway 7. That doesn't make it all on the same corner by any stretch of the imagination though.

All these pathways and tunnels and none of them bother crossing the massive arterial roads to actually serve the neighbourhood.
Well you may want to build massively overdesigned stations, but surely it would be unreasonable to either tunnel underneath Leslie or Sheppard. That would require some pretty tricky engineering given that the roadway for both Lesle and Sheppard is below the floor the Mezzanine level in the station. I fail to understand why you on one hand criticize the station for being overdesigned, and on the other you suggest what would be a really silly overdesign to build tunnels in really difficult locations. Surely a pedestrian overpass of Sheppard at the CN tracks would be much more sensible.

Is that beyond you as well?
Completely beyond me ... I have no idea what you are smoking.

Admittedly, after the Canadian Tire entrance is opened the original main entrance on Sheppard will be redundant since all pedestrians would walk by the other three entrances to get there.
Mostly redundant, but the east entrance is token/pass only, so those with tickets, or day passes, will still need to walk to the main entrance ... and it will still be useful for cars quickly dropping passengers on Sheppard, as well as the bus stop right in front of the entrance.
 
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Another note about Leslie is where are the supposed community with North and East accesses: there aren't really many homes and no businesses serviced by such enterances. If crossing the street at Leslie is too much, there is the option of using Old Sheppard to go directly to the housing on the Northwest corner or to continue to Don Mills station and walk downhill or even catch a bus if it's too far to walk. Both Bessarion and Don Mills are higher elevation, so both provide downhill walks to compensate compared to a shorted uphill one.

In my oppinion, Leslie was meant to service North York General (again there is an grade-seperated surface route across Sheppard) not the few small streets of medium/low density housing. If they were to build or have built a tunnel there anywhere, I'd say the NW to SE corner to connect the East Don River trail would make a lot more sense than a SW to NW or SE TTC-only tunnel.
 
When a station is deemed "cavernous" it's usually not the platforms themselves that are to blame. It's the hundreds of feet of underground tunnels (Leslie comes to mind), and massive concourse levels that aren't within the station box (Don Mills comes to mind) that can add tends of millions of dollars to the cost. Not to mention sprawling underground bus stations in the suburbs where land is plentiful!

Consider the proposed Steeles Station. For one, the number of bus platforms could be reduced. Then, the entire bus station could be built at grade on the Centrepoint parking lot, with structural provisions provided for a tall building overhead. Use Eglinton station's bus platforms as a model. A short tunnel could connect the south end of the station to the adjacent bus terminal, while a direct staircase down to the platforms could be provided on the north side of the intersection, like at the south end of York Mills. If a concourse level is required, build it within the station box like at North York Centre so that no extra excavation is required.

Voila, station cost cut in half and no need to spend millions on expropriation. No negative impact to passengers either.

ya steels is so ridiculous the subway is planned to go farther north, so the amount of feeders will be largely reduced (except for the 60,53,97, YRT 99 and some local GO buses) you don't need a 24+ bus bay underground terminal. heck if you can you don't even need to make it underground. Unless the fire code states that there has to be enough room so that all the stations occupants can be simultaneously evacuated into buses in the event of an emergency.
 
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A sobering read from the Globe & Mail today, on something that nobody in government wants to even talk about.


Canada’s soaring subway construction costs need to get back on track
The city is spending a vast sum on a very ambitious transit-expansion plan, but is getting far less track for the buck than most other places around the world. It’s a national problem, too: Other Canadian cities’ transit construction costs are not far behind.


 
A sobering read from the Globe & Mail today, on something that nobody in government wants to even talk about.


Canada’s soaring subway construction costs need to get back on track
The city is spending a vast sum on a very ambitious transit-expansion plan, but is getting far less track for the buck than most other places around the world. It’s a national problem, too: Other Canadian cities’ transit construction costs are not far behind.


They conveniently left off the SkyTrain Surrey extension.
https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/surrey-langley-fraser-highway-skytrain-update-july-19-2019

It's cost was $200M/km ($3.2B for 16km and 8 stations). I will assume stations are the same 80m as the rest of the Expo line. If I had to break it down, I would assume $120M/km for elevated track, $30M/km for trains (4 car trains), and $80M per station and $200M for train yard.
To adjust these for the Ontario Line (any extension that are elevated) :
I can assume the track is similar (Vancouver has poor soils with the Fraser Delta, and is in a high seismic zone).
For trains, I will assume 6 car trains, so increase that by 50% to $50M.
For Stations, I assume ours will be 120m, so increase that by 50% to $120M.
 
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