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Strike TWO!

I also expect him to pass legislation requiring that all further permanent selections to the senate be elected

Actions speak louder than words though and now that his party is the governing party, electioneering and clever word play does not cut it. Governments are judged on what they do, not what they plan, and what Harper has done in only his first day are actions that most Canadians find baffling at best, and outright hypocrisy and lying at worst.
 
The liberals were in government -- and only did baby-steps -- so I don't think plugging their Accountability Act (which was identified as one of the most comprehensive of any of the parties) is disingenious.
 
Before we go slinging mud and slandering people for political points, can anyone please detail me what exactly he did as a lobbyist? what does this general occupation class really mean? It would be one thing to work for a defense company trying to get them contracts but what if he is simply providing advice/insight or even lobbying for an expanded role/size of military or improvement to its capacity (then he is no different than his party). I think some research might be warranted before condemning the man.
 
think some research might be warranted before condemning the man.

Did the Conservatives wait until investigations and tribunals were over before they started condeming Liberal members and the party as a whole as being bankrupt and corrupt? Lets not forget Harper wanted to bring down the government before the first Gomery report was even released.

The Conservatives had a chance to offer a government that was somewhat above politiking and offer a different way of playing the game. Day 1 showed that they wanted to play the same game that the Liberals did. Fair is fair. Now lets see how well the Conservatives play the game of dodging mud slinging and defending questionable actions.
 
Fair is fair.

Nice to know that you have high moral principles.

Attacking for the sake of attacking an individual (for politics). Not attacking someone for what took place on his watch.

I believe a manager is 100% responsible for all that happens underneath him .... if massive corruption happens ... and you are "incharge" -- then you are responsible -- and fair game.

Attacking Harper for his choices on Emerson and on Fortier is fair game.... attacking the other individual for politics is sleazy.
 
I meant we (as in the collective forum) should do some research before we start accusing,

I would agree with that. I wouldnt advocate baseless attacking whether against Liberal, Conservative, NDP, etc. Although as you said, politics is politics (even if in a degraded form from time to time) and if the Conservatives should not be surprised that they are now on the other end of these attacks when they for years were the ones firing off the shots.
 
First we have someone crossing the floor within minutes of the new government, and now we already have disillusionment from folks like the Sun. My predictions have been spot-on; I just never expected them to happen so quickly.
Totally agree. I honestly thought Harper was smarter than this (or had smarter advisors). The speed of this is crazy.

Also, here's an editorial from today's Toronto Sun...

EDITORIAL: Grit, Tory, the same old story

Congratulations Prime Minister Stephen Harper!

In your first day on the job, you've accomplished what Paul Martin couldn't have done if he'd been PM for 10 years.

You just made Belinda Stronach respectable again.

Until yesterday, we didn't think that was possible.

No doubt Harper's surprise raid on the Liberals to win over David Emerson in exchange for a cabinet post made rabid Conservatives chortle with glee.

Unfortunately, we believe it will also make most Canadians even more cynical about politics and politicians than they already were.

The Liberals have no right to criticize Harper or Emerson, given how they gloated when Stronach crossed the floor last year in exchange for a cabinet seat from Martin. But everyone else does. Wasn't it Harper who campaigned on the idea that it was time for a change from sleazy, Liberal politics-as-usual?

How is Harper's enticement of Emerson over to the Conservatives any different from Martin's enticement of Stronach to the Liberals?

We believe Emerson should resign his Vancouver-Kingsway seat immediately and run under the Conservative banner in the ensuing byelection.

We're also concerned about Harper's appointment of Montreal lawyer Michael Fortier to the Senate and as minister of public works. Fortier, co-chair of the Conservative election campaign, now becomes the unelected head of a ministry which controls billions of dollars in public spending. But he won't have to answer questions in the House of Commons. That will be handled by a parliamentary secretary, whom Harper has yet to name. This too, is unacceptable.

Harper also argued Emerson and Fortier will be strong voices in cabinet for Vancouver and Montreal respectively, neither of which elected a single Tory.

But Harper doesn't seem overly concerned about not having a minister speaking up for Toronto in cabinet, which hasn't elected a Conservative since 1988.

We're not sure how Harper plans to change that, given yesterday's developments.

Harper did do a good job of ensuring every region of the country is represented in his modest, 26-member cabinet, a clear improvement on Martin's bloated 38-member one. But it was his two "surprises," Emerson and Fortier, that overshadowed everything else.

We believe these appointments are Harper's first serious errors in judgment, after running a nearly flawless election campaign.
 
Attacking Harper for his choices on Emerson and on Fortier is fair game.... attacking the other individual for politics is sleazy.

I will agree...attacking an individual and slandering them is sleazy and dirty. There is politiking, which one could argue is simply part of the game, but yes, when you start personally attacking someone, there really is no way to defend those actions.

Nice to know that you have high moral principles.

Have I ever said that I agree with what the Liberals did? No. Do I agree with what the Conservatives are doing? No. And when I said that fair is fair, what I was referring to is that if the Conservatives are going to function in a very similair manner to the Liberals, pushing aside election promises, patronage appointments, political gain over accountability, enticing MP's to cross the floor, etc, then they should expect the exact same criticism that the Liberals received.

I will never be a Conservative supporter. Likewise, I cant see myself ever voting Liberal either. But at least after two months of listening to Harper criticize the Liberals for their immoral and unethical actions, talking about accountability, stopping patronage, and cleaning up the government, I thought maybe this could be a postive aspect of the Conservative government. Maybe they could actually do something to improve the often disgraceful and shameful state of politics in this country. But when on the very first day they essentially do a 180, drop mentions of addressing government accountability, make 2 appointments that are without a doubt questionable (and a few others which have a slightly funny smell to them), then I see no reason to believe that this government is going to take the issue of being more ethical and moral any more seriously than the Liberals did.
 
No, it is not a conflict of interest (unless you can show that that he is still involved in his old job).

Well as MND o'connor has been in office for a day it is certainly doubtful whether it is a "conflict in fact" in this case but "conflict in appearance" is another thing. I was looking for a definition and found this:

"It is of utmost importance to the profession that the general public maintain confidence in the independence of independent auditors. Public confidence would be impaired by evidence that independence was actually lacking, and it might also be impaired by the existence of circumstances which reasonable people might believe likely to influence independence." AICPA (sure this is for american auditors but the point is the same)

And why is this going to keep getting a lot of play in the next few months?.....

Tories want review of Forces' $5B aircraft purchase
If elected, party could reopen bidding to other companies, including Airbus


David Pugliese
The Ottawa Citizen

Tuesday, January 17, 2006

A new Conservative government will review all aspects of the $5-billion replacement of the military's aging Hercules fleet, says the man behind the Tory's defence platform.

Gordon O'Connor, the party's defence critic and the incumbent in Carleton-Mississippi Mills, said in an interview with the Citizen that the purchase should be fair and open.

The Tories, who are leading in public opinion polls, will be going ahead with a purchase -- it's a central part of their platform and will be one of the largest single purchases facing the next government.

But the Conservatives plan to review the purchase, a decision that would appear to reopen the door to competitors to Lockheed Martin's Hercules C130J.

Defence Department officials are already preparing a briefing package for a new minister and plan to argue that the replacement of the military's aging Hercules aircraft fleet should be a top priority for any new government.

The Liberal government announced the project to buy 16 new transport planes shortly before the election was called. The program has already run into controversy over allegations it is rigged to favour the U.S.-built C-130J aircraft.

Preparing a briefing package for a new minister is normal, but defence officials want to ensure the Hercules replacement project proceeds smoothly under either a Liberal or Conservative government.

And the latter prospect appears more likely if the latest public opinion polls are accurate. As a result, the opinions of Tory politicians carry even more weight on issues such as the air fleet purchase.

Mr. O'Connor said a Tory government would examine programs already initiated by the Liberals such as the Hercules replacement.

"Everything will be reviewed," said the former general who wrote the party's defence platform.

"But I want a legitimate competition."

Before the election, Mr. O'Connor alleged in the House of Commons that Defence Minister Bill Graham "fixed the requirements" for the Hercules replacement project to favour the Lockheed C-130J. He noted the budget and the set number of aircraft outlined in the equipment program would stop the giant Boeing C-17 aircraft from being considered.

In addition, Mr. O'Connor said the government's requirement the plane be certified at the time the contract is signed in 2007 would prevent the A400M aircraft, built by a European consortium, from entering the competition. The A400M is not scheduled to be flying until 2008.

But some defence and aerospace officials noted Mr. O'Connor was once a lobbyist for Airbus, the consortium behind the A400M. Others have voiced concerns about the close links between Chief of the Defence Staff Gen. Rick Hillier and a lobbyist for Lockheed Martin.

Gen. Hillier has said the Hercules replacement is the Canadian Forces' top equipment priority, and if new planes aren't bought the military won't be able to transport troops overseas or across this country. The department is expected to further outline that case to the incoming government.

Work on the Hercules replacement program is still continuing but the release of information to aerospace firms, outlining what the military is looking for in a plane, has been delayed. That document, known as the statement of interest and qualification, was supposed to be issued in early January.

Defence and Public Works officials now say they don't have a date on when that will be released.

The competition has already sparked intense lobbying behind the scenes. Lockheed Martin had a high-level delegation in Ottawa this past week.

Shortly before Christmas, ambassadors from Germany, Spain, France and Britain visited Public Works Deputy Minister David Marshall and Defence Deputy Minister Ward Elcock to push the case for the A400M.

Martin Sefzig, an official with the consortium building the A400M, said the firm is hoping the government will drop its requirement for the winning aircraft to be certified at the time the contract is signed. Without that change, the A400M would not be able to compete, he noted.

"We engage the air force, we try to engage (Gen. Hillier) also," Mr. Sefzig said. "We'll see if he grants us a chance to see him because we'd like to have the dialog open."

Lockheed Martin official Peter Simmons said the firm has not been told when the statement of interest is to be released.

He said the company is already preparing its bid.

Al DeQuetteville, vice-president of Boeing's Canadian operations, said the company is waiting for the statement of interest before deciding whether it will offer its C-17 aircraft.

But defence analysts note that Conservative leader Stephen Harper has said his government would replace the aging Hercules as well as purchase new long-range transport planes. The long-range aircraft project would clearly fit the C-17's capabilities, analysts say.
 
Did the Conservatives wait until investigations and tribunals were over before they started condeming Liberal members and the party as a whole as being bankrupt and corrupt? Lets not forget Harper wanted to bring down the government before the first Gomery report was even released.

I meant we (as in the collective forum) should do some research before we start accusing, not the Liberals (though them too, but lets be real- politics is politics).
 
But some defence and aerospace officials noted Mr. O'Connor was once a lobbyist for Airbus, the consortium behind the A400M. Others have voiced concerns about the close links between Chief of the Defence Staff Gen. Rick Hillier and a lobbyist for Lockheed Martin.

there we go. thanks for the article.
 
It would nice to see aircraft selected in terms of their capabilities rather than who knows a buddy who works for some company.
 
I think the real problem here is that people have resorted to actually posting Toronto Sun (Editorials no less) to support an argument. Unless you are discussing how bad Babcock was or how many rock'm sock'm years Tie Domi has left I think we should leave the Sun out of our political discourse.;)
 
Actually the Sun article was mentioned largely out of bewilderment that even the Sun picked up on what a hypocritical move Harper made in some of his appointments. Aside from that single article, every other source has been either the CBC, Globe and Mail, and Ottawa Citizen (over the 3 similair threads on the issue). There is nothing wrong with having posted article and adding it to the discussion since it does in fact represent a view point that many people have (it does have a large circulation afterall).
 
From the Globe (Editorial):

The defence lobbyist who became the minister

Prime Minister Stephen Harper seems intent on interrupting the honeymoon usually enjoyed by new governments by contradicting the very positions he took in Opposition. The Conservatives stand for an elected Senate and condemned the sponsorship scandal that compromised the Department of Public Works and party officials; so Mr. Harper appoints a party official to the Senate and makes him Public Works Minister. The Conservatives' first order of business is to restore accountability to government; so Mr. Harper hands a cabinet post to an MP who only two weeks ago ran as a Liberal and told voters to elect him because the Conservatives were a danger.

And there's a third example. Even as he creates a new rule that former ministers, ministerial staff and senior public servants cannot lobby the federal government for five years after they leave their jobs, Mr. Harper has named a former defence lobbyist to the post of defence minister. Until former brigadier-general Gordon O'Connor was elected in 2004 and named defence critic, he had for years been a registered lobbyist working for the public-affairs giant Hill & Knowlton and specializing in advising defence manufacturers on how to secure government contracts.

Consider a partial list of Mr. O'Connor's clients. From 1996 to 2004, he was an official lobbyist for defence contractor BAE Systems, which last June took over another of his clients, United Defense. From 1996 to 2001, he served defence contractor General Dynamics. From 1999 to 2004, he served naval electronics firm Atlas Elektronik GmbH. From 2001 to 2004, he served Airbus Military, maker of the A400M military transport plane, which has competed to provide transports for Canada's military. In fact, as Mr. O'Connor pointed out only two months ago while serving as his party's defence critic, Airbus was considerably inconvenienced by the way the military arranged its bidding process.

It is not unusual for retired military officers to take jobs connected to the defence industry, but it is rare for a defence lobbyist to jump so quickly to the post of defence minister. Mr. Harper dismisses the notion that lobbying before becoming a minister is in any way similar to lobbying after having been a minister. "Having worked in an industry in the past does not constitute a conflict of interest in the present."

But how could it not? Mr. O'Connor will, as Defence Minister, very likely be dealing with the same people he worked and supped with regularly in his former job as facilitator and enabler. We have no doubt that Mr. O'Connor is an upright individual. He is no longer in the paid service of the defence contractors, and, under Mr. Harper's rules, when he leaves politics he won't be able to return to lobbying for five years. But the man who so recently fought the cases of Airbus Military, of BAE Systems, of Alenia Marconi Systems and the like can't help but be compromised when those companies and others he served compete for new contracts. There is at least the perception of a conflict of interest. And make no mistake, the new Conservative government will be catnip to those companies. Mr. Harper announced in December that any government he formed would increase defence spending by $5.3-billion over five years.

It is perplexing that even as Mr. Harper erects a five-year barrier at the far end of public service, he welcomes into the defence portfolio a man who less than two years ago was a lobbyist with ties to a number of defence contractors. That the Prime Minister sees no contradiction is cause for worry.

AoD
 

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